22 PPC and 222 for 1000yd BR

[flatlander]

Evan, Interesting project. I've been dinking around with a couple of 22 Grinch rifles, with bullets up to the Berger 85.5 hybrid, at velocities a bit above 2900 out of 23" & 24" bbls. The Grinch has a slight increase in case capacity over the 22 PPC, as you can see in the attached photo. My reamer print shows a neck dia. of .254", and with the Starline brass I'm using, not neck turned, I get a loaded neck dia of .252". I turned a batch of this brass down to the point where loaded necks are at .248", so will set the turner to take just a clean-up cut for the next batch of brass. Would like to wind up with loaded neck dia of .251". Not very far along with testing for accuracy, and not sure that the Berger 85.5 Hybrid is the bullet to use. So far, I've only used Alliant PP2000MR & N540 powders with the heavier bullets in the Grinch rifles.

I've got some JLK 90VLDs from years ago when Jimmy still had the bullet making business, and they shot very well out of a couple of 223AI bolt rifles - as have some older Berger 90VLDs - but have yet to try any of them in either of the Grinch rifles. Looking forward to seeing more of your results as you have time to shoot more...

 

[Evan]

So a couple updates:

My Redding FL bushing die was feeling pretty rough on sizing brass, and it was leaving marks (right piece in image):

I really didn't care for how it felt or that it was marking the brass with horizontal lines so I took it apart, grabbed a Dremel with a round felt pad attachment, doused the pad with some Mother's mag and aluminum polish I had on the shelf, and ran it around inside the die with the Dremel turned down to a low speed, careful not to pause in any one spot. This polish is very fine and relatively soft. It's not meant for removing metal and I figured all I needed it to do was knock down any ridges in the die. Well after about 3 minutes total, I washed out the die thoroughly, relubed it, and then tried sizing some cases. No more marks and buttery smooth sizing (left case as example). Easy to do if you have the tools. Without any change in die adjustment, the same shoulder bump is achieved and easy chambering in the rifle with a stripped bolt. Good to go!

The other update is that I checked capacity on some of my fired cases again and am getting 34.5gns of H2O. This is more than my original value of 33.5gn (the meniscus can cause most of this deviation). When I put this into GRT, and turn down the initial pressure setting to "soft lead bullet" of ~1100psi, suddenly GRT shows velocities that align quite closely with what I am seeing, and suggests that I will need 28.4gn of Varget to reach my max pressure of 58ksi and 2990fps. I don't know how I feel about that, but it will fit without undue effort. I'm still going to slowly march up my charge weights in small increments and see where I end up. I'm only trying to hit 2930fps or so where I believe a favorable node to exist, and it seems like I should be able to do that without extreme pressure. We'll see!

 

[ArtinNC]

So a couple updates:

My Redding FL bushing die was feeling pretty rough on sizing brass, and it was leaving marks (right piece in image):
View attachment 1535246
I really didn't care for how it felt or that it was marking the brass with horizontal lines so I took it apart, grabbed a Dremel with a round felt pad attachment, doused the pad with some Mother's mag and aluminum polish I had on the shelf, and ran it around inside the die with the Dremel turned down to a low speed, careful not to pause in any one spot. This polish is very fine and relatively soft. It's not meant for removing metal and I figured all I needed it to do was knock down any ridges in the die. Well after about 3 minutes total, I washed out the die thoroughly, relubed it, and then tried sizing some cases. No more marks and buttery smooth sizing (left case as example). Easy to do if you have the tools. Without any change in die adjustment, the same shoulder bump is achieved and easy chambering in the rifle with a stripped bolt. Good to go!

The other update is that I checked capacity on some of my fired cases again and am getting 34.5gns of H2O. This is more than my original value of 33.5gn (the meniscus can cause most of this deviation). When I put this into GRT, and turn down the initial pressure setting to "soft lead bullet" of ~1100psi, suddenly GRT shows velocities that align quite closely with what I am seeing, and suggests that I will need 28.4gn of Varget to reach my max pressure of 58ksi and 2990fps. I don't know how I feel about that, but it will fit without undue effort. I'm still going to slowly march up my charge weights in small increments and see where I end up. I'm only trying to hit 2930fps or so where I believe a favorable node to exist, and it seems like I should be able to do that without extreme pressure. We'll see!

I have started getting this but only about 20 out of 100 on my brass , Dies are not very old .

 

[Evan]

I have started getting this but only about 20 out of 100 on my brass , Dies are not very old .

Did the pieces that marked up require more sizing effort(i.e. they were hotter loads with more pressure), while the ones that didn’t mark up took less sizing effort?

What I’m trying to say is the die may have been rough from the beginning and less expanded cases that require less sizing don’t get marked up. That’s just a guess. Either way, a quick polish did wonders for me. I didn’t polish my die mirror smooth; my borescope still shows a lot of surface roughness in the die. I wouldn’t personally polish a die to a mirror for fear of changing the dimensions too far and potentially unevenly using a Dremel by hand.

 

[RegionRat]

I agree with a very close inspection of both. Give the dies and chamber both a good look, and clean them well.
If you haven't got an old hand to show you what to look for or how to clean, then always start as gentle as possible and don't get aggressive unless you have to.
A chamber brush with your regular solvent is a good place to start, then patch dry and look at the patches and have another close look with a borescope. Only escalate if necessary.

From the look of it, the body expanded and was worked by the dies and chamber. No opinion as to which one did what, but you will want to check both on account of those longitudinal scratches.

I will also suggest you clean up the cosmetic layer on the brass before you reload, so that you will have a clearer idea on the very next shot, or passing that shot on what the dies are doing. I would also suggest you measure the shoulder diameter of each stage of your brass, from virgin, to first shot, first sizing, etc..

That will tell you if your brass, chamber, and dies are coordinated.

 

[Evan]

I agree with a very close inspection of both. Give the dies and chamber both a good look, and clean them well.
If you haven't got an old hand to show you what to look for or how to clean, then always start as gentle as possible and don't get aggressive unless you have to.
A chamber brush with your regular solvent is a good place to start, then patch dry and look at the patches and have another close look with a borescope. Only escalate if necessary.

From the look of it, the body expanded and was worked by the dies and chamber. No opinion as to which one did what, but you will want to check both on account of those longitudinal scratches.

I will also suggest you clean up the cosmetic layer on the brass before you reload, so that you will have a clearer idea on the very next shot, or passing that shot on what the dies are doing. I would also suggest you measure the shoulder diameter of each stage of your brass, from virgin, to first shot, first sizing, etc..

That will tell you if your brass, chamber, and dies are coordinated.

I measured the shoulder diameter of some of the brass:

• my fired brass measures 0.432
• Once sized by the Redding die, it is 0.428
• Virgin brass measures 0.430

Reducing the shoulder diameter by 0.004 feels like too much sizing, even though it's really not that extreme. My custom Whidden for my 20 Vartarg, as an example, only squeezes the shoulder from 0.359 down to 0.357. If I settle in to the 22 PPC, I'm going to buy a custom reamer and get a custom die made. Between the extra neck clearance and the tight shoulder sizing, I'm interested to see how the brass ages over many firings. My other BR setups have had tighter matchups between the components and make it into dozens of reloadings without issue.

 

[Evan]

Well, it was a windy and cold day, despite the weather predictions. I got some good data today although I don't think I was shooting particularly well. Target was set up at about 500yards in a spot I'm familiar with.

I had another set of 50 virgin brass loaded up with 26gns of Varget (2730fps) and Win748 (2710fps), with varied seating depths. Numbers indicate distance into the lands, or "jam".



For 500yards, these groups are big. I'll throw in my excuses now:

1. it was really windy, requiring 4 MOA and let ups and gusts moved things a lot
2. I felt off my game - my shooting rhythm kept getting disrupted mid-group.
3. It was virgin brass, and bolt lift feel changed a bit from round to round.

Ok, whew. Feels good to get the excuses out there. Seems like it might like 9-10 thousandths into the lands, but I'll now be diving into actual load work with fireformed brass and can verify.

I also brought some fireformed brass with a ladder all the way up to 28.4gns of Varget (2 shots at each step, 0.2gn steps). At 28gns, I hit my target of 2930fps without pressure. At 28.4gns, it still didn't show pressure and hit a lofty 2980fps. 28.4gns of Varget barely comes to the bottom of the neck so I have plenty of capacity for my goal. 4350-speed powders may run out of room; I'll find out as I want to try to develop a load with H4350 as well.

 

[RegionRat]

Are those transducers I see in the corners?!?
And a little antenna peeking over the top?!?

 

[Evan]

Are those transducers I see in the corners?!?
And a little antenna peeking over the top?!?

Haha, yes. I’ve had and use a Shotmarker for years now. I like color and paper for load development so I use them together.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I had thought of doing a fast twist 222 off my 700 ADL also and shooting the 75g ELDMs. However after a lot of research, it just seems the 223 does a lot better with the heavies for some reason than the 222 does. So I ended up rebarreling it to the 223 Wylde with a 28" 8 twist heavy bartlein. Getting 3000-3050fps with the 75s and H4895/N540.

Curious to see your results with the triple deuce.

 

[Evan]

I had thought of doing a fast twist 222 off my 700 ADL also and shooting the 75g ELDMs. However after a lot of research, it just seems the 223 does a lot better with the heavies for some reason than the 222 does. So I ended up rebarreling it to the 223 Wylde with a 28" 8 twist heavy bartlein. Getting 3000-3050fps with the 75s and H4895/N540.

Curious to see your results with the triple deuce.

I’m curious if it will hold vertical tight enough at 1000yd. The 223 seems to struggle with that and my hope is the shorter 222 will have more efficient and consistent performance.

 

[Evan]

A couple things I forgot:

Excuse 4: mirage was bad today and I couldn’t see my 1” dots so aiming precision probably suffered.

This PPC load, 28gns, is 2gns less than the 22BR to get to the same velocity. Overall I’m really pleased with how things are working and I’m excited about the 222 barrel that should be arriving soon.

 

[Fuj]

I had toyed back in the day with a Douglas barreled Remington
722 in 222 Remington Mag. If I were to do it all over again with
the components we have today and did'nt back then.......That 6gt
case would look good to neck down for the heavies.....

 

[D-mon]

In the early 2000, Dr Kolbe from Border barrels in Scotland carried an experiment with a 218 Bee ackley improved with a long throat and tight twist and was getting some pretty good results at 600 yrds with it.

 

[Evan]

For reference and as a proxy gauge of pressure, measuring the unsized, fired brass with my micrometer:

• Virgin, case head measures .4424
• once-fired, 26.0gn load, case head measures .4429
• twice fired, second load was 28.4gn, case head measures .4432

I'm not sure if this is worrying or not. They still chamber smooth and easy which is my usual metric.

 

[Ramblerman]

For reference and as a proxy gauge of pressure, measuring the unsized, fired brass with my micrometer:

• Virgin, case head measures .4424
• once-fired, 26.0gn load, case head measures .4429
• twice fired, second load was 28.4gn, case head measures .4432

I'm not sure if this is worrying or not. They still chamber smooth and easy which is my usual metric.

Hmmm...I'm guessing if it's moving, you're on the hot side brother. 3rd time might have some pockets loosening? A .175" gauge pin in the pocket will let you know when you went too far. Hehehe. Let us know sir

 

[Evan]

Pretty nice day, but breezy. Set up at 500 yards out in the grasslands again. Up early to beat the real wind.

A H4350 ladder didn't make it all the way to max, but 29.8gns is compressed with a drop tube. I won't go any further. That red 2-shot "group" measures 0.625"


Next up was a quick primer check:

I'm not convinced of anything here. See my CCI 400 results below:

I need to think about this ladder a little. I don't know how to read it and the shooting conditions were tricky. I think I like 27.8 up to 28gns, although 28gns is on the edge. That 28gn yellow group is a pretty awesome 0.538" group. The 28.2gn blue group is 1.213" and the 27.7gn green group is 1.288".

 

[Evan]

Well, here are results from the first 600yd match of the year. The wind was ferocious, and the 2.498" group was the smallest of the match. This was 27.8gns of Varget, 90 SMK seated 0.009" in the lands, CCI400. I chose 27.8gn since I'd worked the ladder up at ~40 degrees and it was supposed to hit 80 today and I was worried about breaking out the top. I don't know but kind of feel like the gun was out of tune today so I'll need to keep working on that. Overall though, not bad for a little 22 PPC in 30mph gusty wind that was continuously moving between 3 and 9 o'clock.

 

[Evan]

I was hoping for some warm weather to explore my tune in more summer-like conditions but it was not to be. Colorado served up 26 degrees and a nice strong wind in my face the whole time. It snowed yesterday morning in the grasslands, so humidity was high and that meant it felt pretty cold. Still worth it to go.

I set the target up at 500 yards and shot a ladder around where my suspected node is. That orange group is 1.204" for reference.

I'm not sure that I like what I'm seeing in this, but I don't think this is the best data I've collected. The cold wind in my face, the humidity and light dusting of snow, it meant that there was a lot of mirage and I wasn't as comfortable and relaxed as I should have been and 28gns dropping down may have been bad point of aim due to heavier mirage than the previous steps. I expected a plateau from 27.8 up to 28.0gn.

I also checked the seating depth. I think my "out of tune" at last week's warm match was maybe that I need to seat the 90 SMK a little deeper. Today, 0.005" into the lands looks pretty good at 0.502"! It may have just been a good condition and some luck though.

Overall, not putting much weight in these results but I never really regret going out there and shooting some, even when it's a little miserable.

 

[Evan]

Well, Colorado hasn't surrendered winter just yet. 28 degrees and a 17mph wind wasn't pleasant but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I set up in my usual 500 yard spot and strapped on the Magnetospeed:

I'm sorry this is such an eyesore. I tried to mark it up in a readable manner, but there's only so much to be done when a lot of them land in the black like this. A redux:

• Win 748, 27.5gns is only 2840fps with no signs of pressure. Win 748 seems like it wants to shoot small.
• IMR-4320, 27.5gns is 2840fps with no signs of pressure. For some reason, I had it in my mind that Win748 and IMR-4320 were a little faster than Varget, but looks like they are all right on top of each other for burn-rate.
• Shooters World Long Rifle (SWLR, aka. S065-01), 29.5gns is 2825fps with no pressure and room in the case for maybe 30.5gns before getting crunchy.
• Reloder TS15.5 (RL15.5), 29.0gns is good for 2960fps with some signs that I'm near max as indicated by a less smooth bolt lift.
• Reloder 17 (aka Rocket Fuel), 30.5gns was good for 3100fps. Some signs that I'm near max as indicated by a less smooth bolt lift.

I think I will work up Win 748, SWLR, and TS15.5 some more. I'm really excited for the 222 barrel. I keep seeing really small groups pop out at 2760-2780fps, and that's what I got the 222 to try and target!

I also shot 3 seating depth checks, although I'm not feeling great about the conditions and taking it with a grain of salt:

I'm thinking the sweet spot is maybe +5 into the lands.