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2 Mile cartridges

I'm looking at putting together a 2 Mile gun. Trying to budget build as likely only have 1 or 2 oppurtunities per year.
Been looking at 37xc so a whole bunch of retooling regarding presses ETEC would not be ness. But looking up numbers I don't see too much difference in elevation , speed at target ETEC compared to sending my 300 Norma mag improved with 230 atips downrange at 3195. Obviously impacts would be easier to spot but is there that much real-world difference in wind drift variance ?
 
You'd need to go beyond 338 cartridges IMO. I think starting with the 375, 408, 416 would be the right choice for beyond 2500 yards. Sure people use the 338 in various cartridges but a bigger cartridge and bigger, heavier higher BC bullet is truly the better choice and NO the work budget does not fit into this choice.
 
I would get in touch with Alex Wheeler or Tom. Two miles is a game for big cartridges. I built a 28 Nosler 31 inch barrel and used 190 gr bullets. Only got on at 2,000 yds a few times in windy conditions. You can't see bullet splash. A friend shooting same days with 338 Lapua was having same issues. The 2 mile game is in a league of its own. I have shot with Libert O'Sullivan a few times. He has his own .375 cartridge and you can get to his website at 375 Libert. I shot his rifle as well and shooting a 375 gr bullet was hard to see. My personal opinion is whatever you choose, something 400 gr or above would be the way to go!
 
375 cheytac. I have hit at 2 miles with a 408 cheytac, but the bullet choices with that caliber are very small. There are other options, but you can get everything you need off the shelf with the 375ct (sizing dies, seating dies, annealing pilots, good brass, vast selection of bullets, etc.)
 
You'd need to go beyond 338 cartridges IMO. I think starting with the 375, 408, 416 would be the right choice
^^^ I couldn't agree more. In ELR Heavy Gun ( which goes beyond 1.5 miles), I have never seen anyone shoot a 300 anything. And the few I have seen shoot 338s didn't fare well. Wind drift matters, but two things matter more: 1) how far a bullet travels before it goes transonic, and 2) how visible the impact splash is. The 400+ grain bullets in the BIG heavy guns win on both accounts.
 
It seems most of the Ko2Ms are won or lost on the first day. With that in mind, I would think if you have an accurate 300NMI you could be competitive...?

Or not.

School me those of you who have competed, and thanks.
 
A 300 NMI will shoot that far, but as others have stated, do you
have a way to spot hits? Camera or just driving back and forth?
Really big piece of metal?
Your 37XC would be the smallest choice if you need to stay at a certain price.
You must have the money to build a complete ELR rifle and going to a bigger caliber ( 408, 416 )
won't cost you much more for the once or twice a year you might shoot it.
Have you shot your 300 NMI at 1 mile?
 
I started the December 600 yard club match with a jackpot of $10 a bullet to the person putting a .375 Cheytac solid closest to the middle.

One person, one bullet drawn from a bag with a number on it to determine shooting order, on a pre zeroed gun. 10 of 12 in the match participated, including a junior girl, watching the shots on a ShotMatker.

Anybody can shoot one with a brake. I have shot this rifle at steel in Montana in the wind and it scored hits beyond all rhe smaller guns that day.
 

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One mile is Nothing. Going from one mile to 2K is a bigger jump than most would think. Every few hundred yards past a mile is huge for even a 338 Lapua improved even. I shoot mine at 2K and on the absolutely perfect day it's competitive without a doubt. Throw some Ma nature in the mix and it's ugly. Heavier Higher BC bullets moving as fast or faster than my 338 set up blows away my 338 LI easily at 2500 yards. I'd opt for the .400 caliber cartridges for sure. The 375 Cheytac or Hellfire are definitely pulling a bunch of first place finishes currently. The 408/416 will absolutely replace the 375 as the most popular rifles used for 2 mile competitions eventually. Longer heavier bullets with higher BC numbers will show up for the 408. The 375 is faster and offers higher BC bullets today than the 408 making it better beyond 1500 yards currently. That will change IMO before long. That said, I'm putting together a 375 CT. Look forward to the end result.
 
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338 will do it but spotting is difficult at times, especially with solids.
I’m slowly putting together a 37XC, any of the .375 or bigger is a good option but the 37xc with its Lapua boltface keeps costs down.

If your conditions are good your 300NM will absolutely get there, my first try at 2 miles was with a 7mm.
 
37 XC would do it but spotting your miss will be difficult. 375 Cheytac with 400 grain CE solid at over 3000 fps will be your minimum caliber if you want to shoot 2 miles. Most K2M shooter now shoots bigger caliber from 416 on up to 458.
 
I'm looking at putting together a 2 Mile gun. Trying to budget build as likely only have 1 or 2 oppurtunities per year.
Been looking at 37xc so a whole bunch of retooling regarding presses ETEC would not be ness. But looking up numbers I don't see too much difference in elevation , speed at target ETEC compared to sending my 300 Norma mag improved with 230 atips downrange at 3195. Obviously impacts would be easier to spot but is there that much real-world difference in wind drift variance ?
Not sure what ETEC is the acronym for?

The areas where I shoot bigger is easier to spot isn't that obvious. This is a 250 ATip a couple hundred yards short of 2 miles.

3300 yards

Most misses could be seen through the 7-35 ATACR on the gun. The camera doing the movie can go beyond 120X. It was probably 80-100x here. If the spotting is sketchier than it was in that day, I run the camera output to my phone through a wifi adapter. The DSLR gives more than magnification. Some days the mirage will be too severe for a lot of magnification. Adjusting the brightness and contrast become the camera's strong points. The point here is lighting, and the backstop composition have more to do with spots than bore diameter.

The default KO2M gun is a straight 375CT gun with a 36" 1:7.5 barrel shooting 400 Lazers at 2950-3000 fps. The rub is you'll need to be able to load ammo that gives predictable first round velocities and 10 shot extreme spreads below 10 fps. After 500 rounds, the barrel will still shoot great 100 yard groups but will introduce enough BC spread to keep it out of the finals past 2500 yards. You will not figure out how to keep the velocities that consistent with the first barrel or lot of brass. I strongly suggest you learn it with something relatively cheap.

Bore isn't a great performance metric for ELR. It's significant, but not the largest issue. That 400 Lazer has a G7 of ~0.450. So does the 250 ATip. Same BC, same velocity, same wind drift and drop. Reality starts setting in at about 7mm. At that point, the required twist rate and velocity have the rpms high enough that they start cutting into barrel life. There are a few steps before bursting that'll ruin your day. The Cutting Edge solids help with BC consistency while the barrel is fresh but are a pretty large step back on spotting. Especially for heavy targets.

A better starting metric for ELR cartridges is the Case Capacity to bore area ratio. It gives a strong indication of potential ballistic performance and barrel life. There are additional filters that need to be applied to this. In addition to the RPM limits already discussed, there is a step up in price for Cheytac case heads and another even larger one with the BMG case head. Going the other way, even the Peterson Cheytac brass won't run 338 Lapua case head pressures and the best BMG brass isn't good for Cheytac pressures. Even with the 4# dead blow hammer they seem to ship with the 50s for opening the bolt. Cheytac is the end of the line for LRM primers. BMG is a new game.

1772477121898.jpeg

Everything on this list in red, I've run except the Cheytac case heads. A buddy ran those. Similar practice and loading style. That more or less means 10 shot strings, pressures above SAAMI but well below the internet or what you're running the 300NMI at. The yellow background means I've worn out at least 1 barrel in that cartridge.

The 37XC will give similar ELR performance to the 7wsm, 300wm, and 338lapua.

The top level is more or less 7/300prc, 300lapua, 33xc, 375snipetac, 416barrett. Beyond that, many have found the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Barrel life isn't just a count, it's a life cycle and how predictable performance will be with 10+ shot strings. For a rough cut at balancing the juice and squeeze, every 100 fps with a given bullet effectively moves the target 75 yards closer and costs 1/3 the barrel life. Velocity comes from peak pressure, average pressure (case capacity), powder type and barrel length. Turning all 4 knobs full loud will give impressively short barrel life and a pretty useless ELR gun.

One of the real world examples that started this rabbit hole was the 2016 KO2M. Fitzpatrick won it with the 375 Lethal Magnum, Litz was second with a 338 Edge. The point most miss is Litz outscored Fitzpatrick on the longer second day distances.
 
Is 50 BMG not an option here? My AR50 was cheap compared to a custom ELR Rifle. A few LR bullet options are available, and then theres cheap ball to plink with. Surplus 50 & 20mm powder is still out there relatively cheap.
Though I have been looking if anyone has put a 416 Barrett barrel on an AR50!
 
50bmg is absolutely an option.

It's subject to the same rules though. BC and velocity consistency are more important than BC and velocity.
Surplus powder, brass, and ball bullets won't get very far. After consistency, the G7 on ball 50bmg bullets is ~0.350. They have no chance against much cheaper options.

A Rugby scrum is pretty tame compared to today's jostling for premium 416 components.
 
I think I'm correct in saying.....2016, no shooters hit target at 2 miles, 2017, Rogers was only shooter to hit 2 mile target, 2018, Brantley, Phillips, and Davis hit 2 mile target. Top 10 in 2018 were shooting 375-416 caliber. I'm not sure Litz would go back with a 338 Edge. Big money has jumped into the game the last several years. A 30 cal would have to be really lucky to play in this game. At distance and same BC, weight often trumps the lighter bullet.
 
I forgot the year I went. I took my Eliseo 300WM, but after watching practice, left it and my money in the RAM and just enjoyed the show.
One of Litz's crew (was it Fitzpatrick?) won, IIRC? I have always figured the winner would be BC and a 308 in the 230-240gr range could compete on Day One.
 
The 300 NMI he has will be fine. If anything, turn down the pressure a bit to help the jacketed bullets engrave more consistently. Figuring out how to mount the elevation adder he needs to buy is more important than his next bore. Starting with a cartridge he's tooled up for will shorten the learning curve to minimizing velocity and BC spread from max velocity and minimum 100 yard groups. If every 10 shot string in the ammo box is below 20 fps, it's a solid hobbyist effort that'll easily take down larger cartridges with half again that spread.

The 375 Lethal Mag / 338 Edge scores are done. It happened. The last target hit doesn't really matter in this discussion because the Lethal Mag has more case capacity than the Cheytac. I'd forgotten Phillips was 4th with Litz's gun. How many 375s, 416s, and 50s did that 338 beat? More weight at the same BC won't do a bit of good until you can load a 10 shot string with an ES of 10 and an average you can predict to a few fps. That consistency, not more case capacity and BC is what's improved over the years.
 
The 300 NMI he has will be fine. If anything, turn down the pressure a bit to help the jacketed bullets engrave more consistently. Figuring out how to mount the elevation adder he needs to buy is more important than his next bore. Starting with a cartridge he's tooled up for will shorten the learning curve to minimizing velocity and BC spread from max velocity and minimum 100 yard groups. If every 10 shot string in the ammo box is below 20 fps, it's a solid hobbyist effort that'll easily take down larger cartridges with half again that spread.

The 375 Lethal Mag / 338 Edge scores are done. It happened. The last target hit doesn't really matter in this discussion because the Lethal Mag has more case capacity than the Cheytac. I'd forgotten Phillips was 4th with Litz's gun. How many 375s, 416s, and 50s did that 338 beat? More weight at the same BC won't do a bit of good until you can load a 10 shot string with an ES of 10 and an average you can predict to a few fps. That consistency, not more case capacity and BC is what's improved over the years.
Heavier bullets with same BC as lighter bullets win in wind. Flat out heavy will do better in wind. 308 caliber 250(A-Tip) vs 284 195(Alco Precision ULD))and the 308/250 will beat the 195 everytime in wind. Same BC, same velocity. Wind will and does move the .284 bullet more. 6.5 CM shooters have done fine at a mile and beyond but with not much consistency. When weather acts up even a little, lighter, smaller caliber bullets aren't getting it done like the heavies. I get why people prefer the lighter bullets and smaller cartridges. Go Big or go home has meaning here in the ELR game. The 375 CT and 416 Barrett are the King of 2 mile for a reason.
 

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