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2 Mile cartridges

what about necking the 505 Gibbs case down?
That was the starting point for the Cheytac cases but the 505 wasn't set up for as much pressure.

Bore alone is a really poor metric for ELR cartridges. Case capacity to bore ratio is only an entry point, it's not the answer. If you limit the discussion to bullet weights that more or less scale to bore, there is a slight trend favoring the larger bores. 338, or even 30, to 375 isn't nearly enough to cover 1 shooting position's worth of conditions luck though.

I mentioned the RPM problem on the small end earlier. The 37XC will pick up performance relative to the larger 375CT because the smaller diameter allows more pressure. Not enough to cover the loss in case capacity, but not as bad as the first cut suggests.

Another boundary is the upper limit of case volume that a LRM primer can set off before the BMG primer is a better idea. That was thought to be more or less the Cheytac case for a long time. The latest ELR wonder children are pushing that by using a long tube Cheytac case then limiting themselves to the 215M primer, single base powders, and/or temperatures above 40-50 degrees. The problem I see is to step up to the 416 bore, you'll need almost the 416 Barrett case capacity to maintain the 375 Cheytac performance levels. There will be some allowance for the higher pressure the smaller diameter case allows but I don't see the payoff.

What about the 416 Hellcat shooters that are doing well? Those guys are doing well because they're executing the fundamentals better than the rest. From the reloading bench to their shooting strategies. If a new ELR shooter thinks they'll skip a couple steps by buying a gun chambered in that round, they're in for a very rude awakening the first time they shoot with someone serious. I don't compete much, but I've seen that play out many times. Usually, they don't come back.
 
You guys are all too damn serious about your BIG equipment Now...I have been doing a lot of searching on the interweb and gun mags about this ELR thing. From what I have read, I am COMPLEATLY SOLD on the 6.5 Creed. Shooting heavy for cal bullet ...like the 139 or 140 should do great out to two miles...maybe even three!! I am thinking that the 156 Berger would be overkill from what I have read. That fast twist 6.5 semi-custom bbl on the Savage is SUPER accurate waaaay past where you can see.

I know I will need to buy some reloading gear and learn to reload. My dad used to reload and has several pounds of Red Dot and some Fed 209 primers...I think I can make them fit, so I am most of the way there!!!

Now, I have only shot to 300 yards a couple times, but am a crackerjack shot at 100 yards with my 30-06. I also can hold the cross hair real steady on my ruger 10-22 when shooting gophers. I think with the right equipment and a little guidance, I can be real compeditive. Maybe even get a spotting scope with one of them tripods!!

Now, I will need some of those shirts with all the patches on them...like the pro bowlers wear. I see the PSR guys wear them, so they must help. Also a pair of tactical pants and boots.

Any advice for a future champion shooter?? What is the best scope for 3 miles? My scope budget is 500 - 600

(Satire :D :D )
 
You guys are all too damn serious about your BIG equipment Now...I have been doing a lot of searching on the interweb and gun mags about this ELR thing. From what I have read, I am COMPLEATLY SOLD on the 6.5 Creed. Shooting heavy for cal bullet ...like the 139 or 140 should do great out to two miles...maybe even three!! I am thinking that the 156 Berger would be overkill from what I have read. That fast twist 6.5 semi-custom bbl on the Savage is SUPER accurate waaaay past where you can see.

I know I will need to buy some reloading gear and learn to reload. My dad used to reload and has several pounds of Red Dot and some Fed 209 primers...I think I can make them fit, so I am most of the way there!!!

Now, I have only shot to 300 yards a couple times, but am a crackerjack shot at 100 yards with my 30-06. I also can hold the cross hair real steady on my ruger 10-22 when shooting gophers. I think with the right equipment and a little guidance, I can be real compeditive. Maybe even get a spotting scope with one of them tripods!!

Now, I will need some of those shirts with all the patches on them...like the pro bowlers wear. I see the PSR guys wear them, so they must help. Also a pair of tactical pants and boots.

Any advice for a future champion shooter?? What is the best scope for 3 miles? My scope budget is 500 - 600

(Satire :D :D )
My first success at a mile was with a 260 in a savage!

We have lobbed 6.5 bullets at two miles but it was extremely difficult spotting and no consistency.
Just chasing your tail.


Once you get past 2500 ish yards things get quite interesting.
Wind and vertical dispersion can get diabolical.
 
My first success at a mile was with a 260 in a savage!

We have lobbed 6.5 bullets at two miles but it was extremely difficult spotting and no consistency.
Just chasing your tail.


Once you get past 2500 ish yards things get quite interesting.
Wind and vertical dispersion can get diabolical.
I might even say past 2,000 yds. From 1,000 to 2,000 is one thing and most don't handle that well! 2,000 to 3,500 becomes a new ball game. Everyone has the option to do what they want and run ballistics, but they will find out the hard way.
 
I agree with the yardage thing for reasonably ELR cartridges. If you do believe solvers, it's straight forward to figure out why the vertical dispersion opens up faster and faster. It's the shot to shot BC variation. Not a big deal at 1K unless you shoot at a very high level. By 2K, 1 moa, 10 fps, and 1% BC variation all contribute about the same amount of vertical dispersion. The problem is well below 1 moa is easy with ELR equipment, 10 fps for a 10 shot string takes more time to figure out than your first ELR barrel will last, and 1% BC variation is only possible with conservative solid bullet designs from relatively fresh barrels. By 2500 yards, the BC variation starts to dominate the problem because it's affecting the velocity more than differences at the muzzle.

I shoot regularly between a mile and 2600 yards. Have for a long time. That 3300 yard trip was a couple years ago. I'm wondering how much farther I need to go to find out the hard way?

If you want to build a boomer, build a boomer. I'll sign a note for your wife saying it's necessary.

If you want to learn ELR, start with the practice gun. You're looking for cheaper to run and challenging at distances well below 2 miles. There are simply more places to do it and conditions contusive to good practice are available more often. The first time I tried that 3300 yard location, upslope fog killed the visibility for about a half mile around the shooting position. Only cloud for miles. What's upslope fog? It's the opposite of the Santa Ana Winds and just one of the weather events you might need to learn to see coming if you start this game. This is one of my favorite videos on strange nature stuff and ELR.



The ELR dilemma is until you learn to load ELR ammo, high end equipment won't do a bit of good. Even with good equipment, great ammo and savvy tactics, you can be completely hosed at the shooting order draw. Skipping the wind and just considering the light, would you rather be the guy shooting a couple hours after dawn when the contrast is at its highest or just before lunch in soupy mirage? Switching back to wind, we have this:


I won the match with a factory 300PRC RPR barrel and Hornady brass. No, it didn't have much to do with the shooter. The wind was becoming nasty fast. The 416 Barrett that shot before me was a newbie and didn't have a chance under any conditions. The 375CT that shot after me has been doing it longer than I have and would easily beat me if they conditions were even close. But they were not. I shot the second match with a 300 Lapua shooting 198 Flatlnes at 3400 fps and a 12 ES. 9 fewer mils in the turret at 2K, but the conditions were still bad enough I couldn't even mange the 3 hits needed to qualify for the second match. Sometimes, it'll just be out of your control. The ELR match gallows humor is they're won at the loading bench and draw for position..

If you want to do a bucket list trip, go ahead and use the solvers to figure out what you'll need for optics. Base, turret travel, and elevation adder.
 
416 Cheytac has a ring to it. 2 mile shooting reminds me of math and artillery, and a nice 50 cal may be the way to go, but getting super high quality brass could be an issue?
 
I agree with the yardage thing for reasonably ELR cartridges. If you do believe solvers, it's straight forward to figure out why the vertical dispersion opens up faster and faster. It's the shot to shot BC variation. Not a big deal at 1K unless you shoot at a very high level. By 2K, 1 moa, 10 fps, and 1% BC variation all contribute about the same amount of vertical dispersion. The problem is well below 1 moa is easy with ELR equipment, 10 fps for a 10 shot string takes more time to figure out than your first ELR barrel will last, and 1% BC variation is only possible with conservative solid bullet designs from relatively fresh barrels. By 2500 yards, the BC variation starts to dominate the problem because it's affecting the velocity more than differences at the muzzle.

I shoot regularly between a mile and 2600 yards. Have for a long time. That 3300 yard trip was a couple years ago. I'm wondering how much farther I need to go to find out the hard way?

If you want to build a boomer, build a boomer. I'll sign a note for your wife saying it's necessary.

If you want to learn ELR, start with the practice gun. You're looking for cheaper to run and challenging at distances well below 2 miles. There are simply more places to do it and conditions contusive to good practice are available more often. The first time I tried that 3300 yard location, upslope fog killed the visibility for about a half mile around the shooting position. Only cloud for miles. What's upslope fog? It's the opposite of the Santa Ana Winds and just one of the weather events you might need to learn to see coming if you start this game. This is one of my favorite videos on strange nature stuff and ELR.



The ELR dilemma is until you learn to load ELR ammo, high end equipment won't do a bit of good. Even with good equipment, great ammo and savvy tactics, you can be completely hosed at the shooting order draw. Skipping the wind and just considering the light, would you rather be the guy shooting a couple hours after dawn when the contrast is at its highest or just before lunch in soupy mirage? Switching back to wind, we have this:


I won the match with a factory 300PRC RPR barrel and Hornady brass. No, it didn't have much to do with the shooter. The wind was becoming nasty fast. The 416 Barrett that shot before me was a newbie and didn't have a chance under any conditions. The 375CT that shot after me has been doing it longer than I have and would easily beat me if they conditions were even close. But they were not. I shot the second match with a 300 Lapua shooting 198 Flatlnes at 3400 fps and a 12 ES. 9 fewer mils in the turret at 2K, but the conditions were still bad enough I couldn't even mange the 3 hits needed to qualify for the second match. Sometimes, it'll just be out of your control. The ELR match gallows humor is they're won at the loading bench and draw for position..

If you want to do a bucket list trip, go ahead and use the solvers to figure out what you'll need for optics. Base, turret travel, and elevation adder.
300 Lapua? Is this a 30-338 Lapua?

Thoughts on this cartridge?
 
300 Lapua has a CIP certification and uses a 25 degree shoulder instead of the 20 on the 338. There is an article on it in this board's cartridge guide. I found a set of Redding 300 Lapua dies online so I went that way instead of having custom 30/338 dies made. I did a series of neck down, improved, and neck down with improved cases on the 338 Lapua brass to generate experience with moving up and down that case capacity to bore area chart. I used a blade mic in the extractor groove to estimate pressure. That works better if the same case is used. The 338 Lapua case will take a lot of pressure which allowed experimenting with that as well. The end game was the 300 Lapua was about as far as you could push it and still shoot the 10-15 shot strings common to competition without anything weird going on by the end of the string or during the time gap transitioning to the next target. You still need to transition quickly and can't leave a round in the chamber, but with practice it's manageable. I load it soft with Retumbo. The cases will take more pressure than jacketed bullets like. More velocity is available, but it won't increase scores. I'm on my 3rd barrel and still haven't decided if the 230s or 250s work better.

After several Match 1 / Match 2 comparisons, I'm pretty sure the 30" Bartein 300 Lapua outperforms the 26" Ruger 300 PRC at 2050 yards by no more than 2 hits. 5/10 with the PRC on a 37" target might be 7/10 with the longer barrel, far more precise, larger case 300 Lapua. With everything else that's going on in the real world, the 375s at those matches don't do noticeably better. For that, barrel life is cut in half. Put another way, by 500 rounds on each, the PRC outperforms the 300 Lapua. I chamber my own barrels and usually stick to 1.25" tenons to reduce costs.

I bought several hundred Lapua manufactured BBC head stamped 338 Lapua cases for 80 cents each after Barnes canceled an order during the Remington bankruptcy. Between that purchase and the earlier testing, 300 Lapua is a legacy cartridge for me.

If I was starting from scratch right now, I'd set up pretty much the same thing with a 300 RUM using ADG brass. Similar case capacity, ability to handle pressure and easier to source dies. Much better case capacity consistency than the bulk purchased Lapua. If I wanted to mag feed, I'd go with the 300 Norma and call it good.
 

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