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2 Mile cartridges

375CT, 400 Lazer firing solution from AB Analytics.

1772549646928.jpeg

30 Caliber, 250 ATip, same velocity, I bumped the G7 from 0.450 to 0.451.

1772549756247.jpeg

There are minor differences in the jump and spin drift from the higher Sg with the solid. Actual wind drift and final velocity are the same.

No ballistics text recognizes the same BC is better with more mass effect. No credible solver does either.

My take is at ELR distances, I'll never know the actual wind over that distance over that amount of time well enough to challenge the solver.

The serious ELR shooters I know have moved past wind pearl clutching and recognize that the vertical dispersion is the larger problem and it needs to be controlled at the loading bench.
 
I know where there is a .375 Cheytac Imp for sale.
Bat Action. Kreiger barrel. Mcmillian beast stock
Less than 10 rds fired.
Gun, brass, bullets cleaning rod all together.
 
375CT, 400 Lazer firing solution from AB Analytics.

View attachment 1748443

30 Caliber, 250 ATip, same velocity, I bumped the G7 from 0.450 to 0.451.

View attachment 1748445

There are minor differences in the jump and spin drift from the higher Sg with the solid. Actual wind drift and final velocity are the same.

No ballistics text recognizes the same BC is better with more mass effect. No credible solver does either.

My take is at ELR distances, I'll never know the actual wind over that distance over that amount of time well enough to challenge the solver.

The serious ELR shooters I know have moved past wind pearl clutching and recognize that the vertical dispersion is the larger problem and it needs to be controlled at the loading bench.
Yes those numbers aren't far off, in fact close enough that people trying them at 2 miles are not finding the data to be as good as the numbers read. If they were so accurate, there would be nobody using the 375s or 416s. That seems to be the trend. Paul Phillips from my home state and town currently shoots the 416 Barrett with 550s. He wouldn't be winning today with the 33 caliber cartridges. I guess my point is, if someone is seriously looking for a 3500 yard rifle, I'd start with the 37 caliber cartridge or bigger options. Not even for competition but just consistent hits on target.
 
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having access to land to shoot and practice is a start, we had quite a bit of leased land back in the 80's we could setup and shoot 2000 yds by being inventive, but today you can just google or ask on here it's so much easier...but that land we had is taken by small farms and subdivisions now...I would want to shoot and have a spotter or camera within 100yds as we did back in the day we had a nice hill that we could sit behind and call shots by 2 way I would go 40 cal just depends on the target setup a nice 30 degree slope where target sits would be ideal to walk shots in, that is clean no high grass weeds ect..takes some work to get things how you like them
 
I'm looking at putting together a 2 Mile gun. Trying to budget build as likely only have 1 or 2 oppurtunities per year.
Been looking at 37xc so a whole bunch of retooling regarding presses ETEC would not be ness. But looking up numbers I don't see too much difference in elevation , speed at target ETEC compared to sending my 300 Norma mag improved with 230 atips downrange at 3195. Obviously impacts would be easier to spot but is there that much real-world difference in wind drift variance ?
I have close to 14K in my 375 Cheytac build. That's using a Pierce 10X action, which is one of the cheaper actions available with a .640 BF. I had Fusion Pro make me a custom 18" extended rail so I can run 2 NF 100 moa prisms back to back. A 33XC will take you to 2 miles, but anything over 3k yards, it would be a good idea to look at the .37s on up. With dies, brass, bullets, added onto the cost of the rifle i'm closer to 16k. So think long and hard if you really want to go down this rabbit hole as its not cheap.
 
I have close to 14K in my 375 Cheytac build. That's using a Pierce 10X action, which is one of the cheaper actions available with a .640 BF. I had Fusion Pro make me a custom 18" extended rail so I can run 2 NF 100 moa prisms back to back. A 33XC will take you to 2 miles, but anything over 3k yards, it would be a good idea to look at the .37s on up. With dies, brass, bullets, added onto the cost of the rifle i'm closer to 16k. So think long and hard if you really want to go down this rabbit hole as its not cheap.
Funny you mention Pierce actions. I was thinking of them this morning wondering if he offers one for this. Had John chamber several of my barrels and even own a few of his actions currently but just never considered an action for this build. He's fairly close to my home so I'll take a ride and visit his shop. He's retired but his guys do great work. Might even get lucky and he shows up at the shop
 
Heavier bullets with same BC as lighter bullets win in wind. Flat out heavy will do better in wind. 308 caliber 250(A-Tip) vs 284 195(Alco Precision ULD))and the 308/250 will beat the 195 everytime in wind. Same BC, same velocity. Wind will and does move the .284 bullet more. 6.5 CM shooters have done fine at a mile and beyond but with not much consistency. When weather acts up even a little, lighter, smaller caliber bullets aren't getting it done like the heavies. I get why people prefer the lighter bullets and smaller cartridges. Go Big or go home has meaning here in the ELR game. The 375 CT and 416 Barrett are the King of 2 mile for a reason.
Im curious why that is and why does the math not show this happening in ballistic models? I can see heavier not wanting to move as it takes more force to move a heavier object, but theres more surface area for wind to act on the larger diameter longer bullet so the force acting is higher than the smaller diameter right? Or is this something that really shows up at subsonic and or transonic range at very far distances?
 
Im curious why that is and why does the math not show this happening in ballistic models? I can see heavier not wanting to move as it takes more force to move a heavier object, but theres more surface area for wind to act on the larger diameter longer bullet so the force acting is higher than the smaller diameter right? Or is this something that really shows up at subsonic and or transonic range at very far distances?
I keep seeing these numbers and ballistics and just don't see how it adds up. Theoretically I see the numbers. I reality, that is just not the case in wind conditions. I have a 30 Sherman Mag and shot 208 ELDMs against a 6.5-284 with 147 ELDMs. Both at one mile and both at 3050 fps. Side by side. Both having nearly identical BCs. The results were the 30SM out performed the 6.5 in the 12 mph wind I experienced that day. Not just by a small margin either. The mile made the difference quite large. Had 4 friends all shooting both rifles and each and everytime the 30 caliber won in wind. I've seen this before with other cartridges similarly comparing them having almost identical BC and velocity. The heavier always did better.
 
Funny you mention Pierce actions. I was thinking of them this morning wondering if he offers one for this. Had John chamber several of my barrels and even own a few of his actions currently but just never considered an action for this build. He's fairly close to my home so I'll take a ride and visit his shop. He's retired but his guys do great work. Might even get lucky and he shows up at the shop
Yeah, I'm a 90 min drive from them. Last July, I dropped off the action so they could do a chambering job for me. They actually had a 50X action up there that I could molest a little bit. Call and talk to Jim Nordhof, he's the shop manager, Good dude and does good work.
 
Yeah, I'm a 90 min drive from them. Last July, I dropped off the action so they could do a chambering job for me. They actually had a 50X action up there that I could molest a little bit. Call and talk to Jim Nordhof, he's the shop manager, Good dude and does good work.
Thanks Bud, appreciate it. I'm looking at a complete build that's for sale currently.. Gonna put numbers together for a build and compare. I'm 90 minutes away also. I think its his 10X action I'd be looking at. Thanks again. John.
 
Yes those numbers aren't far off, in fact close enough that people trying them at 2 miles are not finding the data to be as good as the numbers read. If they were so accurate, there would be nobody using the 375s or 416s. That seems to be the trend. Paul Phillips from my home state and town currently shoots the 416 Barrett with 550s. He wouldn't be winning today with the 33 caliber cartridges. I guess my point is, if someone is seriously looking for a 3500 yard rifle, I'd start with the 37 caliber cartridge or bigger options. Not even for competition but just consistent hits on target.
Correct! In paper, the 338 is on par with 375 but reality says other wise.
 
Not sure what ETEC is the acronym for?

The areas where I shoot bigger is easier to spot isn't that obvious. This is a 250 ATip a couple hundred yards short of 2 miles.

3300 yards

Most misses could be seen through the 7-35 ATACR on the gun. The camera doing the movie can go beyond 120X. It was probably 80-100x here. If the spotting is sketchier than it was in that day, I run the camera output to my phone through a wifi adapter. The DSLR gives more than magnification. Some days the mirage will be too severe for a lot of magnification. Adjusting the brightness and contrast become the camera's strong points. The point here is lighting, and the backstop composition have more to do with spots than bore diameter.

The default KO2M gun is a straight 375CT gun with a 36" 1:7.5 barrel shooting 400 Lazers at 2950-3000 fps. The rub is you'll need to be able to load ammo that gives predictable first round velocities and 10 shot extreme spreads below 10 fps. After 500 rounds, the barrel will still shoot great 100 yard groups but will introduce enough BC spread to keep it out of the finals past 2500 yards. You will not figure out how to keep the velocities that consistent with the first barrel or lot of brass. I strongly suggest you learn it with something relatively cheap.

Bore isn't a great performance metric for ELR. It's significant, but not the largest issue. That 400 Lazer has a G7 of ~0.450. So does the 250 ATip. Same BC, same velocity, same wind drift and drop. Reality starts setting in at about 7mm. At that point, the required twist rate and velocity have the rpms high enough that they start cutting into barrel life. There are a few steps before bursting that'll ruin your day. The Cutting Edge solids help with BC consistency while the barrel is fresh but are a pretty large step back on spotting. Especially for heavy targets.

A better starting metric for ELR cartridges is the Case Capacity to bore area ratio. It gives a strong indication of potential ballistic performance and barrel life. There are additional filters that need to be applied to this. In addition to the RPM limits already discussed, there is a step up in price for Cheytac case heads and another even larger one with the BMG case head. Going the other way, even the Peterson Cheytac brass won't run 338 Lapua case head pressures and the best BMG brass isn't good for Cheytac pressures. Even with the 4# dead blow hammer they seem to ship with the 50s for opening the bolt. Cheytac is the end of the line for LRM primers. BMG is a new game.

View attachment 1748204

Everything on this list in red, I've run except the Cheytac case heads. A buddy ran those. Similar practice and loading style. That more or less means 10 shot strings, pressures above SAAMI but well below the internet or what you're running the 300NMI at. The yellow background means I've worn out at least 1 barrel in that cartridge.

The 37XC will give similar ELR performance to the 7wsm, 300wm, and 338lapua.

The top level is more or less 7/300prc, 300lapua, 33xc, 375snipetac, 416barrett. Beyond that, many have found the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Barrel life isn't just a count, it's a life cycle and how predictable performance will be with 10+ shot strings. For a rough cut at balancing the juice and squeeze, every 100 fps with a given bullet effectively moves the target 75 yards closer and costs 1/3 the barrel life. Velocity comes from peak pressure, average pressure (case capacity), powder type and barrel length. Turning all 4 knobs full loud will give impressively short barrel life and a pretty useless ELR gun.

One of the real world examples that started this rabbit hole was the 2016 KO2M. Fitzpatrick won it with the 375 Lethal Magnum, Litz was second with a 338 Edge. The point most miss is Litz outscored Fitzpatrick on the longer second day distances.
Did litz run cup/core or solids in his 338 edge?
 
Im curious why that is and why does the math not show this happening in ballistic models? I can see heavier not wanting to move as it takes more force to move a heavier object, but theres more surface area for wind to act on the larger diameter longer bullet so the force acting is higher than the smaller diameter right? Or is this something that really shows up at subsonic and or transonic range at very far distances?
I’m curious if it could be because of more mass giving stronger gyroscopic stability?
 
Is 50 BMG not an option here? My AR50 was cheap compared to a custom ELR Rifle. A few LR bullet options are available, and then theres cheap ball to plink with. Surplus 50 & 20mm powder is still out there relatively cheap.
Though I have been looking if anyone has put a 416 Barrett barrel on an AR50!

The AR-50 is a very sound rifle. It’s built with a heavy single shot action like a competition match rifle.

It shoots the 750 factory A-Max loads very well. These factory loads in my estimation are actually responsible for all the 50 caliber record long shots made in the many years of desert war, post 911. They are the original A-Tip bullets.

As much as I like the 250’s, they do not always make it to the target, in volume fire matches. I can swab down the barrel to mitigate heat, but that is a distracting disadvantage and still not assured to work. At temperatures other bullets are fine with, they are sensitive. ELR’s round counts may sidestep this, though.

The 750’s are unassailable. I’m sure that if an AR-50’s backblast wasn’t like a blindfolded hit from a full-swung laundry bag, factory loads from Hornady, when just a primer is over a dollar, in that gun would have a bigger following with guys who aren’t insecure about it being so obtainable. (It’s reasonable price never made sense, but sometimes you just have to recognize that in a gun and quietly stash some sway for later.)

I will be trying the 390’s in .375 sometime soon. Lehigh Defense makes a solid for the .375 with G1 above 1.0, that is Benchrest group accurate. The Lehigh Defense bullet is so good, that it warrants a build just to use it.
 
I keep seeing these numbers and ballistics and just don't see how it adds up. Theoretically I see the numbers. I reality, that is just not the case in wind conditions. I have a 30 Sherman Mag and shot 208 ELDMs against a 6.5-284 with 147 ELDMs. Both at one mile and both at 3050 fps. Side by side. Both having nearly identical BCs. The results were the 30SM out performed the 6.5 in the 12 mph wind I experienced that day. Not just by a small margin either. The mile made the difference quite large. Had 4 friends all shooting both rifles and each and everytime the 30 caliber won in wind. I've seen this before with other cartridges similarly comparing them having almost identical BC and velocity. The heavier always did better.

Devise a way to release a heavy and a lighter bullet with the same BC so that they free fall through a column of water.

My hypothesis is that water resistance to gravity is a surrogate for wind without the vagaries of a gust, a bad barrel damaging a jacket or sending a bullet on an inefficient path, or disparate MV.

They don’t even need to be released side by side, just individually timed. But side by side, in a transparent tank a few feet tall would be incredibly telling.

Drop both slightly submerged already, point down and horizontal, at a depth insufficient for them to turn and fall tail first. Big number averaging would be the goal here.

I have never seen this done before, but as long as you keep them out of each other’s turbulence I see no reason why the first to the bottom isn’t going to mirror the better in the wind.

I’ll add that plastic bb will fly through the air, but not sink in water, so the bullets being compared should be of similar construction.
 
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I've spent a lot of time shooting beyond a mile and have not noticed the smaller bullets needing more wind than the solver suggested when compared to the larger bullets. I've had better results taking a hard look at how well I really know my inputs than questioning the solver. I've shot a lot with guys running the 400 Lazers and the 250 ATip solutions line up as well as can be expected from strings shot by different people making different decisions under slightly different conditions. Shooting 105 Hybrids at 2K didn't require any extra windage beyond what simple solvers suggested.

To be clear, this isn't navel gazing with a solver. It's taking my best effort with the solver, looking at the live fire solution, and thinking long and hard about where the differences came from. For about 15 years now.

This is the 30 caliber at 3300 yards day. Something came up with the 375 Cheytac 390 ATip guy that was going to join me so I shot by myself. The 3300 yard target is the light spot just above the halfway point between the camera and black rock. The 2100 yard target used for URSA matches is the light spot in the corner formed by the camera display and the power cable.

1772651728369.jpeg

I usually use a canopy to preserve my cheap irish skin and make digital displays easier to read but it was too windy to put one up. The Kestral gave rapidly changing and gusty winds between 6 and 15 mph with just over 10 mph as the more or less mid point. It was coming from 10:00 at the shooting position. I guessed that it would rotate to 8:00 as the bullet traveled across the 2 drainages on the way to the target. Wasn't sure how much the wind would change as the bullet arced over the ridgeline so I started with what I had with the idea that I'd increase the windage if I didn't see splash. The goal was to more or less center up the impacts on the reticle with the splashes near the target. Call it 85% value on 12 mph. Subtracted 5F from the Kestral air temperature to adjust for the height above ground level.

Firing solution from 4DoF.
1772652675149.jpeg
Firing solution from AB Quantum.

1772652742572.jpeg
I put 5 mils in the windage turret and went for it. The first shot was 1.5 mils right and a half mil low. Second shot hit. No additional hits that string. I shot six 10 shot strings. Was skunked once, had another 1 hit string and three 2 hit strings. One hit was a skip for sure, another was a maybe. The target is a 37" circle. That's 1.1 moa at that distance. Much larger than the 24" square that M&S use. Much smaller than a real KO2M target for that distance. Wind holds were between -1 and +2 miles on the reticle after 5 mils in the turret. Pretty much what the Kestral, a little thinking, and the solvers suggested.

These are the three 2 hit videos.




If you decide to watch them, it'll be 9ish minutes of your life you can't have back. There is no narration or build up. Just raw spotting video.

You might notice:
1 - 211 yards short of 2 miles with a 30. It happened. More than once.
2 - The spotting improves as the backstop dries out
3 - The wind is significant, but vertical is the real problem. You can't tell what adjustments I'm making on the fly but this is pretty much what a half moa gun with a 10 shot ES in the mid to high teens and maybe 2.5% of BC shot to shot variation looks like at that distance.

This is a relatively inexpensive ELR hobby gun to set up and run. I had maybe $200 in consumables for the day and probably 5-6 hours of travel and setup.
 

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