17AH - reloading question

[AckleymanII]

I never annealed, probably should have after 5 firings. I don't know if I ever lost a case either, I sure don't remember it if I did. Forming these are so simple, I had an old Hornady Projector press that rotates the case to the next station on every pull of the handle.

My process was to apply chamfer the case mouth, then apply wax, have a pile of cases(usually a 1000), then run them through the progressive press about as fast as I could pull the handle and insert another case. I shot Winchester brass, should have shot Rem due to the fact that it holds a little more powder.

If I had it to do again, it would be a 20 Ackley hornet.

 

[dedogs]

I'll have to try each of the 3 different approaches mentioned above.

With multiple suggestions that are polar opposites from each other, I'm puzzled as to how mine are coming out the way they are. It appears something else is wrong.

Chuck, I'm not positive as to what's going on with your brass but it does appear that there is too much resistance to the forming process. This could be caused by many factors but I really suspect brass that's too hard for the amount of reduction in neck diameter. I would anneal 5 pieces of brass and try again. I also like AckleymanII's idea of putting a heavy champher (NOT DE-BURR) on the case mouth and rotating it 1/2 way through the sizing process. It certainly shouldn't hurt ( and remember: There is more than 1 way to skin this particular cat! Remain open minded.) Since .22 Hornet brass has been difficult to find and Winchester has not made a run of it in awhile, I suspect that your brass has "age hardened" and that this could be contributing to your difficulties. Where did you get the Hornet brass?
Also Jeremy(WI) had a good suggestion about necking to .20 first and then going down to .17. This method incurs an extra step in the forming process but if it keeps you from ruining hard to come by brass it is worth doing.
I'm still waiting for the measurements I requested of before and after neck thickness. Also have you requested a reamer print from Cooper? dedogs

 

[dedogs]

I shot Winchester brass, should have shot Rem due to the fact that it holds a little more powder.

Maybe so but I bet your accuracy would have suffered. Remington Hornet brass I have measured is all over the place compared to Winchester I have measured. dedogs

 

[AckleymanII]

Maybe so but I bet your accuracy would have suffered. Remington Hornet brass I have measured is all over the place compared to Winchester I have measured. dedogs

did you notice where it looked like the case was being formed down and off center? I wonder if there is an alignment issue with the shell holder centerline of the die? Grasping for straws here as this operation is usually easier than sitting on the front porch steps killing ants with a claw hammer.

 

[dedogs]

did you notice where it looked like the case was being formed down and off center? I wonder if there is an alignment issue with the shell holder centerline of the die? Grasping for straws here as this operation is usually easier than sitting on the front porch steps killing ants with a claw hammer.

Yes I did and I'm not sure what's causing it. It looks like the case body is not in contact with the die as the neck is being formed. dedogs

 

[AckleymanII]

Yes I did and I'm not sure what's causing it. It looks like the case body is not in contact with the die as the neck is being formed. dedogs

As another poster has stated, it appears that too much force is being applied, the neck is resisting being formed, and there is an alignment issue. If the centerline of the die and the centerline of the case are too far off, this would create a situation like you are seeing.

I was looking at the cases as new in the first page of the post. It appears that there is a little "flower" on the end of the case that is a bulge of sorts. This may be the source of your aggravation. This bulge has to be ironed out by the die, but I elected to cut the "flower" off with a heavy chamfer.

Be sure that the case is touching the edge of the shell holder as you lower your handle.

Also, very tough brass, undersize die, or perhaps problems with a production die may cause problems. If tough brass is the issue, then fire forming is going to create splits in the shoulder, you can take that to the bank. I have never seen this kind of issue. There should be a simple fix somewhere in the equation.

 

[AckleymanII]

My rifle prefers N110, shot better than any powder I have tried over the years with 20g Berger MEF's. Tiny groups was an understatement, but no where near as fast as N120 which ruined my cases at the accuracy node. I would urge any and all to try N110 with a 20g if you want to see consistent small groups like you have never seen out of the 17 AH...no kidding. 200 yard groups were shocking, day in and day out.

 

[spencerhenry]

my form dies neck down in two steps, with the third die being the full length die.
i have never tried going from 22 to 17 in one step.

 

[dedogs]

Chuck, What brand and # shell holder are you using? dedogs

 

[master_photog]

Chuck, What brand and # shell holder are you using? dedogs

dedogs, I'm using a Forster Co-Ax. The shell holders are generic meaning that it's adjustable and it fits many sizes.

I picked up my Lee tube lube yesterday and lubricated my cases and let them setup overnight. It was like Christmas morning this morning when I went in to form them this morning........However, same result. The case is only forming on one side. I have a 'bump' on one side of the case and the other side is smooth.

The next step is to turn them, as AckleymanII suggested. I wanted to try it without turning them, in hopes that I wouldn't have to turn them. I will lube 4 more today, run them half way into the form die, then turn them and run them the rest of the way (tomorrow).

 

[dedogs]

Chuck, Contact Forester. Their listing of cases that will work in the adjustable shell holder does NOT list .22 Hornet. I think AckleymanII hit it. I don't think your cases are aligning properly in the shell holder. dedogs

 

[master_photog]

Their listing of cases that will work in the adjustable shell holder does NOT list .22 Hornet

Sounds good, I'll touch base with them. I will be disappointed to think that Todd of the Woodchuck den would steer me wrong when we talked about a nice press to load with for the 17AH.

I will get back with you on the neck thickness, this measurement is the least of my worries at this point. I'm not sure the thickness of the neck has any bearing on my current struggles. I know you've mentioned it a couple times, I just wanted to let you know I will indeed get that info, but I'm assuming that another chapter until I get going on the forming die situation.

 

[dedogs]

Chuck I may be making a wrong assumption but it does look like your cases are not aligning properly with the die. Unfortunately I have no experience with the Forester set up you have but I do know that Winchester Hornet brass can vary significantly on rim THICKNESS. Not sure if this could cause a problem with alignment. Since Forester does not show an application for the Hornet case it makes me think there may be a problem gripping such a small case head. I'm assuming you set the shell holder up per Forester's instructions. dedogs

 

[master_photog]

Chuck I may be making a wrong assumption but it does look like your cases are not aligning properly with the die

Mystery may be solved

I have confirmed that the jaws that I have that come with the Forster Co-Ax are not for the 22Hornet. The jaw system is a spring loaded opening type of jaw. The jaws that come with the press did indeed work by grabbing my 22H brass, this is where I made the assumption that the included jaws happened to be right. Well, I happened to be wrong. Just because they are grabbing the case base, there is a little too much 'play' for the case to wiggle.

Thanks for dedogs and AckleymanII's pointers on directing me at looking closer at my press setup and die alignment.

The LS jaws (Forster's name of the jaws) are on order and will be here soon. I'll keep you posted if this was in fact the problem the whole time.

Many thanks to all!

 

[charlesasmith]

Chuck I may be making a wrong assumption but it does look like your cases are not aligning properly with the die. Unfortunately I have no experience with the Forester set up you have but I do know that Winchester Hornet brass can vary significantly on rim THICKNESS. Not sure if this could cause a problem with alignment. Since Forester does not show an application for the Hornet case it makes me think there may be a problem gripping such a small case head. I'm assuming you set the shell holder up per Forester's instructions. dedogs

I special ordered the 22 Hornet plate set from Forester to get the press to work correctly. Go on line and you will find it listed on the Forester site.

Chuck

 

[dedogs]

Sometimes the simplest things....