17AH - reloading question
- Thread starter master_photog
- Start date
dedogs, here is a closeup of the FL die. I asked for the FL die when ordering, what they sent is this. I didn't mention anything about it being a FL bushing die. They could have sent me a bushing die, but I don't know the difference between the two. Can you confirm with the image if it's simply a FL die and not a FL bushing die?
Chuck, What you have is a regular full length die so you cannot control the grip on a bullet unless you turn the necks on your brass which would become a trial and error method. Not the easiest way to go and it would be very time consuming but it could be done that way. A Redding full length bushing die is marked B/FL next to the name of the cartridge it is made for. It also has a recess under the threaded cap for the expander button to accommodate a bushing. A Redding bushing neck die is marked B/NK and sizes only the neck of a cartridge. It normally does nothing to the body and shoulder. you already have the Wilson neck die and with the appropriate bushings you should be fine.
You can make acceptable loaded ammo with the dies you have or you can send the regular Redding full length die back and exchange it for a full length bushing die if you feel the need. The problem is you will not know which bushings to order for it until you have a bullet you intend to use seated in a piece of brass you intend to use (Winchester). Then you can measure the diameter of the loaded cartridge to make an educated decision on which bushings to purchase. Same problem with a Wilson neck die. A range of three different sizes sequentially smaller in diameter starting one or two thousandths below the measured diameter of your loaded round should be sufficient and should allow you some flexibility in the choice of bullets and brass. You won't know the answers to many of the questions concerning what load your rifle likes best until you have the rifle in hand and can experiment with various components. It's a bit of a journey to squeeze the maximum amount of accuracy out of a given rifle and remember this :JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY ELSE'S RIFLE LIKES A CERTAIN LOAD DOES NOT MEAN YOURS WILL. Hope this helps.
You did not mention what sort of measuring tools you have acquired. dedogs
You can make acceptable loaded ammo with the dies you have or you can send the regular Redding full length die back and exchange it for a full length bushing die if you feel the need. The problem is you will not know which bushings to order for it until you have a bullet you intend to use seated in a piece of brass you intend to use (Winchester). Then you can measure the diameter of the loaded cartridge to make an educated decision on which bushings to purchase. Same problem with a Wilson neck die. A range of three different sizes sequentially smaller in diameter starting one or two thousandths below the measured diameter of your loaded round should be sufficient and should allow you some flexibility in the choice of bullets and brass. You won't know the answers to many of the questions concerning what load your rifle likes best until you have the rifle in hand and can experiment with various components. It's a bit of a journey to squeeze the maximum amount of accuracy out of a given rifle and remember this :JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY ELSE'S RIFLE LIKES A CERTAIN LOAD DOES NOT MEAN YOURS WILL. Hope this helps.
You did not mention what sort of measuring tools you have acquired. dedogs
dedogs, do you have a part number or a link to the full length bushing die you are referring to? The only thing I found on Redding's full length bushing die is in the link here and I see a lot of 17 dies listed but none for the AH.
Thanks!
Here are two of my measuring tools:
O.K. Now we are getting somewhere! Take that Mitutoyo tubing mic and measure the neck thickness of 5 pieces of YOUR brass at a spot midway on the neck ( a little bit left of where the pointer on the dial gauge is in your picture). Measure each case in four places 90* apart and record these numbers for each case. Then measure each of the four cases Kindler formed for you in the same manner and record these results also. Then get back to me with the AVERAGES of each group of figures. This will tell you what bushings you should get and how much the neck is thickened when it gets squished down from .22 to .17. Once you know which bushings to get you will need to find out what the MAXIMUM allowable over-all CASE-LENGTH is. (Not overall loaded cartridge length--there is a vast difference between the two) What sort of case trimmer do you have? Also do you have any Imperial Die Wax--you're going to need it?!
The case trimmer I have is in the image that I posted that had the multiple dies, I believe it's the third die from the left.
Did you find a link to the FL Bushing die from Redding? I came up empty on my search for a FL Bushing die on the 17AH.
Chuck, If that trim die is the only thing you have you may have a small problem. The .17 Hornady Hornet is considerably shorter than the .17 Ackley Hornet. This is why you need a manual case trimming lathe with the appropriate shell holder. It is also why it would be GREAT if you could get a copy of the reamer print that Cooper is using to chamber your rifle. If they won't give you a copy of the print ask them to tell you what the MAXIMUM TRIM LENGTH is of the loaded rounds they will be test firing your rifle with.
The reason you can't find a Redding Full Length Bushing die for .17 ACKLEY HORNET listed in Redding's catalogue is that you have to order it from the custom shop...probably take forever (remember... the .17 Hornady Hornet is a factory round and the .17 Ackley Hornet is a WILDCAT.) Sorry, my mistake if I mislead you about having all the necessary tools to make loaded cartridges. dedogs
The reason you can't find a Redding Full Length Bushing die for .17 ACKLEY HORNET listed in Redding's catalogue is that you have to order it from the custom shop...probably take forever (remember... the .17 Hornady Hornet is a factory round and the .17 Ackley Hornet is a WILDCAT.) Sorry, my mistake if I mislead you about having all the necessary tools to make loaded cartridges. dedogs
i size with a redding full length die, not a bushing die. the cost and wait for a 17 AH bushing die kept me from it. i have had good luck with the regular full length die.
the last step after the form dies is the full length die. i am also using it for sizing. it sizes the case body down some, but i have no issues with sub 1/2 moa. with that accuracy i see no reason to change.
i am using winchester, remington, and PPU. the only split cases i have had were some unknown history used brass of mixed headstamps, a few split during fire forming
i am using winchester, remington, and PPU. the only split cases i have had were some unknown history used brass of mixed headstamps, a few split during fire forming
Spencer, So are you trimming the necks to Hornady Hornet length or leaving them long (as in Ackley Hornet long)? Also curious as to how many loadings on your brass. I may learn something here. dedogs
i am forming with 22 hornet brass. length set by form/ trim die 2. without looking it up, i do not recall a number.
pretty sure i am on the 4th loading with the winchester brass and loading 2 with the remington. ppu formed just fine, but have not been fire formed yet.
the winchester is a batch of 300, 100 each of the remington and ppu.
i have never seen a 17HH round or brass
pretty sure i am on the 4th loading with the winchester brass and loading 2 with the remington. ppu formed just fine, but have not been fire formed yet.
the winchester is a batch of 300, 100 each of the remington and ppu.
i have never seen a 17HH round or brass
dedogs, here is the result of using the Imperial Die Wax with the Redding Form #1 die.
I ruined multiple pieces of brass by trying to:
· Use more wax
· Use less wax
· Back the die away from the shell holder further
· Move the die closer to the shell holder
I know it's difficult to troubleshoot this via the images and my explanation, but do any suggestions come to mind as to what else I could try so that the brass is formed more uniformly?
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
I have formed many thousands of 17AH brass, never any issues. This is one of the simplest things you can accomplishe.
First, put one heck of a chamfer on that case mouth, this starts the case mouth into the die easily and decreases stress on the shank.
Size half of the neck, slowly, retract, then rotate the case with your fingers, finish.
First, put one heck of a chamfer on that case mouth, this starts the case mouth into the die easily and decreases stress on the shank.
Size half of the neck, slowly, retract, then rotate the case with your fingers, finish.
Do you suggest putting "one heck of a chamfer on that case mouth" by using a hand held tool or a manual trimmer with the deburring attachments - such as the ones in this link?
http://www.lewilson.com/products.html
Thank you
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
I use a std RCBS or Wilson deburring tool, held in a Sinclair holder, spun in a variable speed half inch drill. The cases have too much stress put on them entering the die, which is why they want to buckle. Lee sizing lube, white in the "tooth paste" type of tube is the best lube I tried for this job. I apply the wax with my finger, let it set up, then start sizing down with the std RCBS full length sizer. It was very, very rare to ever loose a case.
something else is going on. i have never lost a case during forming.
i use imperial wax, never chamfer a case, never rotate cases, or any other special tricks.
i anneal after fire forming, but annealing prior to the first forming step might help.
i use imperial wax, never chamfer a case, never rotate cases, or any other special tricks.
i anneal after fire forming, but annealing prior to the first forming step might help.
I'll have to try each of the 3 different approaches mentioned above.
With multiple suggestions that are polar opposites from each other, I'm puzzled as to how mine are coming out the way they are. It appears something else is wrong.
With multiple suggestions that are polar opposites from each other, I'm puzzled as to how mine are coming out the way they are. It appears something else is wrong.
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