Freedom Benchrest members support???

[Ahhnother8]

Correct me if I’m wrong here. So you are saying you should be able to shoot a 22lb f class compliant rifle (without the brake or suppressor) in light gun class? While everyone else shoots a 17lb rifle?

Me, no. All of my F-Class rifles would make weight. I am advocating for other F-Class shooters AND trying to point out to Freedom that there is a VERY significant number of shooters out there that have essentially identical equipment as benchrest shooters. But benchrest would rather 'stay true to its roots', than make an essentially irrelevant rule change.

Mentioned previously is that many/most benchrest shooters use their light gun in heavy gun matches. I believe that here, to a person, everyone does the same. Clearly, they don't feel out-gunned against an unlimited weight rifle, so why would they fear a 22# un-braked rifle?

Coincidentally, the SWN's are in Phoenix this week. There will be 300+- F-Class shooters there. The F-Class Nationals will be in Phoenix in the Fall and there will be 300+- shooters for that too. Does LR benchrest draw anywhere near those numbers? Has LR benchrest grown much in the last 10 years? This really is not that complicated, if there truly is a desire to grow, if not simply survive.

And some of us really do have charming personalities. Me, not so much.

 

[Will Watkins]

Me, no. All of my F-Class rifles would make weight. I am advocating for other F-Class shooters AND trying to point out to Freedom that there is a VERY significant number of shooters out there that have essentially identical equipment as benchrest shooters. But benchrest would rather 'stay true to its roots', than make an essentially irrelevant rule change.

Mentioned previously is that many/most benchrest shooters use their light gun in heavy gun matches. I believe that here, to a person, everyone does the same. Clearly, they don't feel out-gunned against an unlimited weight rifle, so why would they fear a 22# un-braked rifle?

Coincidentally, the SWN's are in Phoenix this week. There will be 300+- F-Class shooters there. The F-Class Nationals will be in Phoenix in the Fall and there will be 300+- shooters for that too. Does LR benchrest draw anywhere near those numbers? Has LR benchrest grown much in the last 10 years? This really is not that complicated, if there truly is a desire to grow, if not simply survive.

And some of us really do have charming personalities. Me, not so much.

I get what you are saying I want the sport to grow as well. Yes I understand light guns shoot with heavy guns or 22lb guns. I’ve shot my light gun against many 22lb rifles. That’s not the point though. If there was a 22lb weight limit my rifle will weigh right at 22lbs. The rule is 17lbs and we all know it before going to a match. That would be like me bringing my stuff to an f class match and asking to shoot off the bench instead of the ground because I don’t have f class feet for my rest. You quoted that you (or others) won’t shoot bench rest because you “aren’t welcome”. I don’t think that’s the case. It’s just the rules that are set in place.

 

[big john 5394]

I started shooting f class first and went to bench rest built a light gun and used my f class gun for heavy gun. I love shooting both disciplines. So, all off you f class shooters you are welcome to shoot bench rest in heavy gun .

 

[tony parker]

Me, no. All of my F-Class rifles would make weight. I am advocating for other F-Class shooters AND trying to point out to Freedom that there is a VERY significant number of shooters out there that have essentially identical equipment as benchrest shooters. But benchrest would rather 'stay true to its roots', than make an essentially irrelevant rule change.

Mentioned previously is that many/most benchrest shooters use their light gun in heavy gun matches. I believe that here, to a person, everyone does the same. Clearly, they don't feel out-gunned against an unlimited weight rifle, so why would they fear a 22# un-braked rifle?

Coincidentally, the SWN's are in Phoenix this week. There will be 300+- F-Class shooters there. The F-Class Nationals will be in Phoenix in the Fall and there will be 300+- shooters for that too. Does LR benchrest draw anywhere near those numbers? Has LR benchrest grown much in the last 10 years? This really is not that complicated, if there truly is a desire to grow, if not simply survive.

And some of us really do have charming personalities. Me, not so much.

i have to adjust my rifles to make weight in the class i want to shoot in i thick most can i had to trim 4 lbs to make weight for the sharp shooters this past weekend but also considerd adding a few pounds to my light gun maybe i should have i may have done better anyway i personaly would love to see some f class guns and there drivers at our matchs the more the merrier FREEDOM

 

[JFrank]

Me, no. All of my F-Class rifles would make weight. I am advocating for other F-Class shooters AND trying to point out to Freedom that there is a VERY significant number of shooters out there that have essentially identical equipment as benchrest shooters. But benchrest would rather 'stay true to its roots', than make an essentially irrelevant rule change.

Mentioned previously is that many/most benchrest shooters use their light gun in heavy gun matches. I believe that here, to a person, everyone does the same. Clearly, they don't feel out-gunned against an unlimited weight rifle, so why would they fear a 22# un-braked rifle?

Coincidentally, the SWN's are in Phoenix this week. There will be 300+- F-Class shooters there. The F-Class Nationals will be in Phoenix in the Fall and there will be 300+- shooters for that too. Does LR benchrest draw anywhere near those numbers? Has LR benchrest grown much in the last 10 years? This really is not that complicated, if there truly is a desire to grow, if not simply survive.

And some of us really do have charming personalities. Me, not so much.

F Class shooters are welcome at any time, the majority just don’t show up and IMO weight class isn’t the reason they stay away , they might use that as an excuse but in reality I think they are just invested into F Class and prefer to shoot score with a delay and not concern themselves group& score shooting.
It’s not a money thing because f class guys go through a lot more ammo and gear than BR guys do.

 

[Joe Salty]

I've been following this, so I would like to chime in. When I started in 1972 there was only Heavy guns at Williamsport Pa! It was then. Do what you want to the rifle, But it had to be on sand bags.
Then in 1995 everyone wanted a Light Gun class. Well The IBS and Pa could not decide what weight to go with so IBS went with 17 lb. Pa said 16.5 lb. IBS said you could do what you want to the rifle Pa had restrictions on this no there's. You now the story. Then Pa put restrictions on our Heavy Guns like tuners and weight restriction of 125 LB. we lost some good members because of that. I wasn't Happy.
so in 2006 I became President of the Club. And I took it to the Members to have a vote on what would be the way to go. I let the IBS know that if we went with 17 lb would they go to 10 shot, a few said yes but as you can see we still shoot TEN. The restrictions were taken of the table and here we are today still bitching about rules. Myself I'm at the point were maybe I've got maybe a few years left to shoot. I still keep thinking in my mind I'm the 25 year old, but the body keeps telling me no.
So just something to remember your not Tom Cruise and other than the people in the shooting sports!
No one knows who you are!

Joe Salt

 

[Ahhnother8]

That would be like me bringing my stuff to an f class match and asking to shoot off the bench instead of the ground because I don’t have f class feet for my rest. You quoted that you (or others) won’t shoot bench rest because you “aren’t welcome”. I don’t think that’s the case. It’s just the rules that are set in place.

Funny that you should mention that. I removed the F-Class feet from my SEB rest and use 'pucks'. The rest is placed on top of a shooting mat in front of me. And NRA has provisions to accommodate those who cannot shoot off the ground, with a bench. Not certain of the specifics. Locally, we allow ANYONE who wants to shoot off a bench to do so, competing straight up with the rest of us. No excuses needed and we have a few at most every match who choose to do so. The same is true with muzzle brakes. We still beat the pants off of them, but at least everyone gets to come out and play.

You are correct. It's not that we are not welcome. It's that our extremely similar equipment is not welcome. For the Freedom West Coast Nationals, I notified our F-Class group of the 2026 weight limit and the match has already lost 3 entries and I suspect there will be a few more, when they read yesterdays email. It's all so sad, for such a triviality.

 

[Ahhnother8]

I started shooting f class first and went to bench rest built a light gun and used my f class gun for heavy gun. I love shooting both disciplines. So, all off you f class shooters you are welcome to shoot bench rest in heavy gun .

If the ENTIRE match was heavy gun, that would be fine. But, many of us who cross over want to win and skipping light gun would preclude that. And the potential hundreds of competitors that might otherwise choose do dabble in benchrest now and again are NOT going to come out to a match to shoot 30 shots. Or I believe, only 15 shots at 600 yards. I don't do 600, so not certain.

 

[Will Watkins]

Funny that you should mention that. I removed the F-Class feet from my SEB rest and use 'pucks'. The rest is placed on top of a shooting mat in front of me. And NRA has provisions to accommodate those who cannot shoot off the ground, with a bench. Not certain of the specifics. Locally, we allow ANYONE who wants to shoot off a bench to do so, competing straight up with the rest of us. No excuses needed and we have a few at most every match who choose to do so. The same is true with muzzle brakes. We still beat the pants off of them, but at least everyone gets to come out and play.

You are correct. It's not that we are not welcome. It's that our extremely similar equipment is not welcome. For the Freedom West Coast Nationals, I notified our F-Class group of the 2026 weight limit and the match has already lost 3 entries and I suspect there will be a few more, when they read yesterdays email. It's all so sad, for such a triviality.

So the only thing I’m getting from this comment is that at your local range you are basically shooting an outlaw match? No rules are really set in place. Some shooting off a bench and some on the ground. Some with brakes some without. Just so you have more shooters? If it’s an outlaw match I’m 100% fine with it. More shooters the better. If it’s a sanctioned match and you’re shooting for points that’s where I have an issue. Rules are rules and they need to be followed by everyone competing for said points.

 

[Ahhnother8]

F Class shooters are welcome at any time, the majority just don’t show up and IMO weight class isn’t the reason they stay away , they might use that as an excuse but in reality I think they are just invested into F Class and prefer to shoot score with a delay and not concern themselves group& score shooting.
It’s not a money thing because f class guys go through a lot more ammo and gear than BR guys do.

You are mostly correct. Those that MAY be interested read the rules and realize that their equipment is not welcome, so they simply move on. Under the current rules, I am also now in that camp, as are a number of our other locals. Long-range shooters LOVE to shoot, the match format is somewhat irrelevant.

Our primary focus is F-Class, which is why the 22# limit is key. And you said, "invested". Exactly!! We are NOT going to alter our finely-tuned equipment, from our primary discipline, to try-out or occasionally dabble in benchrest. Most are also NOT going to beat on benchrests door to be allowed in. If benchrest would swing open the door and invite F-Class in, with their existing 'kit', one might be surprised by the response. Have personally seen it work, here in Sacramento. The benchrest group here is great.

The money thing is scary. At this exact moment, there are a pile of F-Class shooters on the firing line at Ben Avery, most of whom are from East of the Rocky Mountains. The SWN's fill up with 360 competitors in under 30 minutes. AND these same shooters will return to Phoenix in the Fall, to do it all again. Benchrest seems to believe that it is easier to recruit new, younger shooters and talk them into spending $$$$$, rather than picking the low-hanging fruit, which is currently F-Class.

 

[Ahhnother8]

So the only thing I’m getting from this comment is that at your local range you are basically shooting an outlaw match? No rules are really set in place. Some shooting off a bench and some on the ground. Some with brakes some without. Just so you have more shooters? If it’s an outlaw match I’m 100% fine with it. More shooters the better. If it’s a sanctioned match and you’re shooting for points that’s where I have an issue. Rules are rules and they need to be followed by everyone competing for said points.

Sorry, I was not clear. These are Highpower/F-Class matches, and there are many rules. It's just that some are not really important enough to affect the outcome of the match. Typically, the best wind reader wins, regardless. Yes, I suppose they are "outlaw" matches. I'm going to suggest that we start calling them just that. But until the people with the "outlaw" rifles start to win all of the matches, it's really irrelevant. So far, it has not happened, where we had to sit them down and have 'the talk'.

The ultimate goal is a fun day for everyone and to set the hook deep on the newbies. Clearly, benchrest in general is more concerned with rule-sets and that some "outlaw" wins a match and the accompanying $25 award, than growing the sport. Or in benchrest, maybe literally saving the sport.

On the local benchrest side, if they choose to overlook a few things, they will have a decent turnout. If not, it will be like last months match, with 7-8 competitors. At what attendance number do they just give up and pull-the-plug? It may be getting there...

 

[DHuffman]

I feel this thread is getting us all very close to an agreement that will satisfy all and attract new shooters LOL

 

[shoot4fun]

I feel this thread is getting us all very close to an agreement that will satisfy all and attract new shooters LOL

As a long time shooter and match director I will say this about that.
There is NO FKN WAY TO GET SHOOTERS SATISFIED OR IN AGREEMENT!!!!!!

 

[rwj]

It takes an army. It doesn't matter, NBRSA, IBS, FREEDOM or whoever. There is a core group, lots of time a small core group that gets things done. There are rules from all three sanctioning bodies that I like, and equally do not like. Cost and time are giant obstacles match directors and recorders have to balance. As stated a few times above my post. Volunteer when you can. Its hard on the same small group of guys to put the matches on and get things finished on the norm. We are hosting our first (Hopefully) big match this year. And as stated it takes an army!

With due respect to all thread posters, @tillroot1 has identified the least common denominator - volunteers! Without them, there will not be any matches to shoot regardless of the rules and formats. As a former USPSA match director, I’ve witnessed the burnout she has poignantly identified… along with a number of clubs cease holding matches due to a lack of volunteers.

 

[jackieschmidt]

This is why we have a Club Match program at Tomball.

Yes, it is just Varmint for Score, 100 and 200 yards. The top class, which we call the “Benchrest Class”, is open to any legal firearm as long as it is not considered a return to battery Rail Gun.
We do get the occasional F-Class or PRS Shooter wishing to see just how accurate his rig is. However, the vast majority is the same shooters with their short 30 caliber rigs shooting their legal NBRSA VFS Rifles.

Some will fall into our Modified Class, which most PRS Rifles meet. Many only come once because they find out that their Rifle that will “shoot 1/4 inch all day long” has been fooling them.

But at least they get to compete with similar rifles in a Format that is based on pure accuracy, and nothing else.

 

[9146gt]

i have to adjust my rifles to make weight in the class i want to shoot in i thick most can i had to trim 4 lbs to make weight for the sharp shooters this past weekend but also considerd adding a few pounds to my light gun maybe i should have i may have done better anyway i personaly would love to see some f class guns and there drivers at our matchs the more the merrier FREEDOM

All the rifles I have shoot at RED White and Blue and Hawks Ridge have been F Class guns.
Tom

 

[Sniperhandle]

Results? I have been to matches where the shooters don't know the results. Seems posting them is sometimes a secret waiting to be revealed long after time is spent waiting for the Tactical Class shoot to end.

Probably just me but I recoil at the number of shooters that leave before results are posted and the awards are done.

Me too, If they're not going to the podium there's a trail of dust, They leave everybody else to do all the work before and after matches.

 

[Rick Richard]

They ole saying “80% of the work gets done by 20%”of the membership, participants or etc. typical human behavior in any event….some folks wish it was as high as 20%. Just saying.