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What causes groups like this ?

This is a general observation and it's based on what I have seen as a range officer when asked about groups when people have issues and on some evaluation of my own issues from some competitive shooters. You have one group shot in a setup which held pretty well vertically with some horizontal spread. You came off the rifle, made a scope adjustment and then set up for the second group. On this group you held tight horizontal and scattered vertically. This is extremely obvious.

So what changed? Load? It is highly unlikely that the load caused this. Five random shots for each group would spread more randomly. Size of the group maybe load but not the pattern. You show two very distinct patters in two separate groups.

Equipment? I assume you didn't change bags, etc so the change again is unlikely to be the equipment itself. Scope? Could be but not likely.

Shooter? Here is the thing that changed most between the two groups. Maybe you only looked over the rifle and made the scope adjustment or maybe you left the rifle entirely but you did release the rifle. To shoot the right target you had to adjust the POA to that target which involved the movement of rifle, but what about the bags? Did you realign them. Did you repeat the rifles position on the bag? Did you hang the front swivel on the bag. OR did you change your hold on the rifle trying to reduce the horizontal spread from the first group?

Bottom line is none of us can diagnose the problem here just by looking at those groups. We can offer opinions based on what we have seen and experienced. Ultimately you will have to determine the cause of the scatter. In this case I tend to think it is shooter induced.
So do i. I just need to find out where im messing up at. The squeeze bag I bought I thought would be the great end all to my trouble but it’s only gotten worse as far as using it for accuracy on a bench. It should work great for me just banging steel at various distances just far from ideal for a bench unless I can learn to drive it
 
Cant promise it’s holding a perfect zero
That’s a troubling concern. The groups aren’t bad but if I had a doubt about a scope I’d just switch to another if you have one.
I never hesitated to ask a friend of mine whose skills are near identical to mine, to shoot it and see what he gets.
A spare scope and a friend who shoots the same are surely cheap but maybe unobtainable.
 
A squeeze bag is nice for easy adjustability, but challenging to maintain a perfect grip to achieve consistency. In any case the objective is to setup using NPA whereby the rests "hold" the rifle on target with little personal interaction, trying to steer the rifle introduces every possible group shape imaginable.
 
So do i. I just need to find out where im messing up at. The squeeze bag I bought I thought would be the great end all to my trouble but it’s only gotten worse as far as using it for accuracy on a bench. It should work great for me just banging steel at various distances just far from ideal for a bench unless I can learn to drive it
@CharlieNC is spot on with his observation and I will add one comment that is tied to this. When you shoot off a set of bags it's important to try and follow the recoil of the rifle. If it recoils in a different direction or more or less between shots it's something that the shooter is doing. For instance the vertical stringing could well be the result of inconsistency with the squeeze bag.

Another thing I picked up on is you mentioned flinch. If you flinch you are anticipating recoil and that triggers your body/mind reaction to the recoil before it ever happens based on when you think it is going to happen which will vary from shot to shot.
 
@CharlieNC is spot on with his observation and I will add one comment that is tied to this. When you shoot off a set of bags it's important to try and follow the recoil of the rifle. If it recoils in a different direction or more or less between shots it's something that the shooter is doing. For instance the vertical stringing could well be the result of inconsistency with the squeeze bag.

Another thing I picked up on is you mentioned flinch. If you flinch you are anticipating recoil and that triggers your body/mind reaction to the recoil before it ever happens based on when you think it is going to happen which will vary from shot to shot.
I know I flick a fuzz. I always have but somehow I have been able to not let it affect me with other rifles
 
Here is my target at 540 yards trying a new holding technique. I was not consistent and it resulted in two distinct groups.

Edit: the wind was 10-14 mph during this.
 

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If you want to try something to sort out your front bag issue (if that is what it is), get a pair of old jeans and cut off about 18" of the lower leg portion, twist wire around one end to seal it, fill about 80% full with regular sand, then wire tie the other end. lay your new "bag" down and tamp it with something heavy and flat to get your fore-end to lay flat and level on it. Use your squeeze bag on the rear. The fore-end is very well supported and any inconsistencies you have in your squeeze-bag technique will be somewhat minimized. For something that cost almost nothing and looks butt-ugly - it will provide you a quick way to isolate "bag problems" versus load problems. I shoot "semi free-recoil" testing loads, with only my thumb resting atop the stock (no pressure), finger on the trigger and the buttstock almost touching my shoulder (as close as it can get without introducing possible influences on the stock). No cheek weld or other influences on the stock. This will show you more of what you load is doing - and less of how much your technique is influencing that group.

I agree with what others said about switching up your load a bit. I'd first try seating your bullets about .005" beyond contact with the lands. If you are using bushings in your sizer, use only light neck tension (about .002" smaller bushing than loaded round, as measured at the end of the neck). The reason for this is to also mitigate some runout that may be influencing accuracy (though runout alone will not usually enlarge groups that much). I'd start there as that costs nothing other than the cost of a few fired components. If you still have groups like you do, I'd stop right there and change powders or try a few other bullets. Groups of that size , more often than not, are not cured with primer changes or tweaking the powder level - or even further fiddling with seating depth. There are exceptions to everything in this game - but more often than not... Most rifles have an affinity for a certain powder - and it can sometimes not be the standard "go to" for that caliber as used by most competitors. If you have buddies from whom you can get a small sample of powders you would like to try, that can be very worthwhile. My network of friends is always swapping powder, bullets, primers, etc.. Varget, Reloader 15, etc. come to mind... Another bullet choice might be the Lapua 105 Scenar "L" bullet. Jam it. If you jam all loads, you only need about 16 rounds-worth of each powder to see if there are possibilities, shooting 4-shot groups.

Then there is the question as to whether you ever shot "really good" groups with that scope or, for that matter, with that rifle. If you have, the odds are your bedding, scope, scope mounts, etc. may not be an issue - unless the rifle was knocked over on the rest, etc. Getting groups like that is fairly common when using a powder your rifle is not loving with that particular bullet. If equipment and technique is satisfactory, you will likely be changing one of the two. Good luck!
 
I know I flick a fuzz. I always have but somehow I have been able to not let it affect me with other rifles

The flinch effect is likely somewhat masked by the higher weight of the rifles. Also, note that bag placement can have a sometimes significant effect on dispersion. It can often be seen in monitoring the rifle deflection.
 
I’ll ask this also. I know form and consistency is important from reading years worth of threads on here. I’m not going to argue but why does so much emphasis get put on bench shooting or any shooting when the rifle doesn’t recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel. That is correct isn’t it ? When practicing dry firing which i believe is very important looking for any reticle movement if there is none it should translate into the same movement with a live round until it leaves the barrel correct ? I also understand a flinch is bad as your moving before the rifle goes off or before it gets down the barrel
 
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I’ll ask this also. I know form and consistency is important from reading years worth of threads on here. I’m not going to argue but why does so much emphasis get put on bench shooting or any shooting when the rifle doesn’t recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel. That is correct isn’t it ? When practicing dry firing which i believe is very important looking for any reticle movement if there is none it should translate into the same movement with a live round until it leaves the barrel correct ? I also understand a flinch is bad as your moving before the rifle goes off or before it gets down the barrel

Many movements occur before the bullet exits, don't be fooled by the videos you "see" because a few thousandths at the muzzle has a tremendous effect on the target, moreso as distance increases.
 
Op, your groups look like a combination of wind and a little out of tune, to me. fwiw. There are likely people better at it than me but I read groups of targets sent to me almost every day. Some shapes simply can not be wind induced and some can be. When you learn to look at groups with that in mind as well as other causes, it becomes pretty easy to do with a good bit of accuracy to it. I'll say this and quit...I simply can't fathom why anyone shoots for accuracy or while tuning..without flags. As others said, even surveyor tape on a stick or coat hangers is way better than nothing at all. Yes, even at 100 yards! And yes, there are other things that can cause vertical but you have two different shapes there. A lot like two different wind conditions while a little out of tune.
 
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Op, your groups look like a combination of wind and a little out of tune, to me. fwiw. There are likely people better at it than me but I read groups of targets sent to me almost every day. Some shapes simply can no be wind induced and some can be. When you learn to look at groups with that in mind as well as other causes, it becomes pretty easy to do with a good bit of accuracy to it. I'll say this and quit...I simply can't fathom why anyone shoots for accuracy or while tuning..without flags. As others said, even surveyor tape on a stick or coat hangers is way better than nothing at all. Yes, even at 100 yards! And yes, there are other things that can cause vertical but you have two different shapes there. A lot like two different wind conditions while a little out of tune.
Thanks Mike. I appreciate your thoughts on here. This load was developed by guys I have faith in. That being said the barrel was a on a different action and stock than what I have and I’m sure with a far better bench setup. It could need just a little tweaking
 
I think DirtySteve may have hit on the problem. Variables in your hold can induce a parallax problem. You never said which scope you were using, but it really doesn't matter. If your eye isn't in the exact same orientation to the scope, you will see a shift in impact. That's why you sometimes get two distinct groups in a 5 shot group. It's due to minute changes in your hold.
Try this: Mount your rifle, move your eye forward until the scope blacks out. Then slowly nudge your eye to the rear until the image opens up. Do this for every shot consistently. See if this helps to tighten your groups. No more flyers.
No matter which scope, they all have some parallax. The only way to counter it is to make sure your eye is in the exact same spot every shot.
 
Thanks Mike. I appreciate your thoughts on here. This load was developed by guys I have faith in. That being said the barrel was a on a different action and stock than what I have and I’m sure with a far better bench setup. It could need just a little tweaking
Tune changes even with environmental changes, much less swapping stuff like that. I'd bet part of it is tune related. And that's not saying he did a bad job at all. All guns change tune to some degree and yours looks close. I'd say .3gr of powder away.
 
I’ll ask this also. I know form and consistency is important from reading years worth of threads on here. I’m not going to argue but why does so much emphasis get put on bench shooting or any shooting when the rifle doesn’t recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel. That is correct isn’t it ? When practicing dry firing which i believe is very important looking for any reticle movement if there is none it should translate into the same movement with a live round until it leaves the barrel correct ? I also understand a flinch is bad as your moving before the rifle goes off or before it gets down the barrel
I thoght recoil started when the bullet started moving. Correct me if I am wrong. For every action there is a reaction. Motion doesn't start when the bullet leaves the muzzle.
 
I think DirtySteve may have hit on the problem. Variables in your hold can induce a parallax problem. You never said which scope you were using, but it really doesn't matter. If your eye isn't in the exact same orientation to the scope, you will see a shift in impact. That's why you sometimes get two distinct groups in a 5 shot group. It's due to minute changes in your hold.
Try this: Mount your rifle, move your eye forward until the scope blacks out. Then slowly nudge your eye to the rear until the image opens up. Do this for every shot consistently. See if this helps to tighten your groups. No more flyers.
No matter which scope, they all have some parallax. The only way to counter it is to make sure your eye is in the exact same spot every shot.
I’ll try that. But I do set my parallax at each distance. It’s an athlon Midas tac 6-24x50 it’s a little underpowered for small groups at distance
 

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