Strangely familiar, similar to the incentives given to the medical fields, to juice advantageous numbers, per govt.
Do you Think they would Lie to US??
Electric Cars -- anyone own one?
- Thread starter muleman69
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Do you Think they would Lie to US??
We have 2 kids and took them all over town in the Leaf
We take them all over creation in the Tesla
We're driving from Utah to Ohio, VA, NC this June. Hunting groundhogs in Ohio for a week along the way.
I'll report back.
Y'all don't have to worry about being "forced" to buy an EV; the most they're goign to represent is 25% of the market like in Norway.
Hybrids are the way forward for now.
But this post was started to get impressions FROM PEOPLE WHO OWN THEM LIKE ME, so that's why I'm chiming in AND QUESTIONING THE NAYSAYERS WHO HAVE NOT EVER OWNED ONE
He also thinks bottled water tastes better when you shake it. He can’t even operate the register at an ice cream shop.
I think EV’s are great.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
To understand the angst, first you must understand that pushing legislation to ban ICE motors and punitive taxes on fuel, are what most would consider "force".
3Sigma
Silver $$ Contributor
I'll comment on this... I want everyone to understand that Norway is not a suitable case study here. The only reason EV ownership in Norway is so high is due to very high financial incentives by the government for EVs. The incentives are done via taxes due at purchase, VAT and import taxes. EVs also pay lower tolls, and have free registration. It truly is a case of the government picking the winner before the race began.
The irony is this is financed via the Norwegian Sovereign Fund, which is funded via royalties from North Sea oil and gas resources.
The going view across the industry is 10% market penetration is the current realistic limit in North America. This takes into account cost, resource constraints, and suitability of EVs. Hybrids may make up another 10 to 20%, but their complexity and added cost are another limiting factor. Combine that with the median age of the fleet is 12 years old, the majority of vehicles on the road will be gas or diesel for the next 30 to 50 years. Only a drastic improvement in energy density and drastic cost reduction can change that trajectory.
That is my non-political assessment.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Electric cars suffer ‘unsustainable’ depreciation in secondhand market
(The Telegraph, 17 Jan '24) Electric cars lose as much as half of their value after just three years on the road, new figures show, as the rate of depreciation far outstrips petrol equivalents.Research from Auto Trader said there were “unsustainable levels of depreciation” in the electric car market, with used prices of battery-powered vehicles dropping by 23% in the last year alone.
...
Auto Trader’s latest report warned that “residual values of electric cars remain unsustainably low”.
It said that the price of used electric cars could come under further pressure this year as thousands of motorists return vehicles acquired on three-year leases and as manufacturers cut the price of new vehicles.
Electric cars suffer ‘unsustainable’ depreciation in secondhand market
Electric cars lose as much as half of their value after just three years on the road, new figures show, as the rate of depreciation far outstrips petrol equivalents.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
Not picking on you. Just raising legitimate concerns. My first post (#13) i freely admit to not being an owner, but being in the repair industry and also in the position of advising people on how to work out if a certain vehicle might meet their needs. I don’t need to own every car ever built to be able to help customer come to their own conclusions.
Much of where we differ is simply because of where you likely live. What you refer to as driving all over creation is likely less mileage, than for my customers going to the next town and back. I posted a local high school basket ball schedule, the shortest one way drive was about 165 miles. Not too many EV’s have that range, over 300 miles in the winter. That’s just going to a kids ball game. Same schedule has one way trips over 450 miles. Not uncommon at all for that to be done round trip in one day. It could be done in an EV. But likely need 3 recharges each way or more in the winter.
Asking honest opinions of Tesla owners that are customers. None have brought their car here a second time to their summer homes. In their words, not worth the hassle. One went as far as leaving his with a friend half way from Florida and renting a car for the summer.
You can plan as carefully as you want, but If the only charger for 50 miles doesn’t work when you get there. Have a plan B.
Small examples.
What do you do when you get a flat that can’t be repaired, in a small town?
Tesla has great customer service, they will send you a tire. Have that flat late on a Thursday afternoon, and you should be back on the road Tuesday or Wednesday. That’s something you might want to keep in mind in good groundhog country.
Flathead lake to the visitor center at the top of Logan pass in Glacier park. About 150 miles round trip. The drive includes 15 miles of 6% grade. Stop and go traffic because people want to take in the view. Temps in the 80’s so A/C is nice to use. Plan about 1.5-2 hours for that 15 mile stretch of road. Customer made an unplanned over night stay in a hotel that had the only charger in the park. That kind of bulged the budget. Loves the car in Tucson, vowed to never bring it back here.
Very careful planning, much more than a gas powered vehicle for the unexpected. But even with very careful planning, being stranded for longer periods of times a given driving an EV when something isn’t in the play book.
I am always interested in positive stories and would love to hear yours when you get back. I’d also like to hear how the same trip works out in the winter for comparison.
Since you seem to live or spend time in Utah, maybe you can answer a question I haven’t heard a good response to.
How’s that auto drive and some of the other features that require cameras to work in winter when they ice over! Or just plan covered in cross country road grime?
Serious question. One I haven’t been able to get from an actual driver in snow country.
No hate, just not real practical in my world.
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Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Testimony (excerpts) yesterday to the US Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources by Robert Bryce:
* In 1901, in an article headlined “Edison’s New Storage Battery,” the Los Angeles Times declared, “The electric automobile will quickly and easily take precedence over all other” types of motor vehicles. It said, “If the claims which Mr. Edison makes for his new battery be not overstated, there is not much doubt that it will make a fortune for somebody.” The media hype continued for the next 100 years:
* In 1911, the New York Times reported that the electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution” because it “is cleaner and quieter” and “much more economical.”
* In 1915, the Washington Post wrote that “prices on electric cars will continue to drop until they are within reach of the average family.”
* In 1959, the New York Times claimed the “Old electric may be the car of tomorrow.” The story said EVs were making a comeback because “gasoline is expensive today, principally because it is so heavily taxed, while electricity is far cheaper” than it was in the 1920s.
* In 1967, the Los Angeles Times reported that American Motors Corporation was on the verge of producing an electric car, the Amitron, which would be powered by lithium batteries capable of holding 330 watt-hours of energy per kilogram. (That’s greater than the energy density of modern lithium-ion batteries.) Backers of the Amitron declared, “we don’t see a major obstacle in technology. It’s just a matter of time.”
* In 1979, the Washington Post claimed General Motors had achieved “a breakthrough in batteries” that “makes electric cars commercially practical.” The new zinc-nickel oxide batteries will provide the “100-mile range that General Motors executives believe is necessary to successfully sell electric vehicles to the public.”
* In 1980, the Washington Post claimed “practical electric cars can be built in the near future,” and that by 2000, the average family would own cars “tailored for the purpose for which they are most often used.” It went on to say that “In this new kind of car fleet, the electric vehicle could pay a big role – especially as delivery trucks and two-passenger urban commuter cars. With an aggressive production effort, they might save 1 million barrels of oil a day by the turn of the century.”
* In 2014, Tony Seba, an author who is currently a lecturer in “entrepreneurship, disruption, and clean energy” at Stanford University, declared, “By 2025, gasoline engine cars will be unable to compete with electric vehicles.” He continued, claiming that internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles “are toast.”
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* In 1901, in an article headlined “Edison’s New Storage Battery,” the Los Angeles Times declared, “The electric automobile will quickly and easily take precedence over all other” types of motor vehicles. It said, “If the claims which Mr. Edison makes for his new battery be not overstated, there is not much doubt that it will make a fortune for somebody.” The media hype continued for the next 100 years:
* In 1911, the New York Times reported that the electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution” because it “is cleaner and quieter” and “much more economical.”
* In 1915, the Washington Post wrote that “prices on electric cars will continue to drop until they are within reach of the average family.”
* In 1959, the New York Times claimed the “Old electric may be the car of tomorrow.” The story said EVs were making a comeback because “gasoline is expensive today, principally because it is so heavily taxed, while electricity is far cheaper” than it was in the 1920s.
* In 1967, the Los Angeles Times reported that American Motors Corporation was on the verge of producing an electric car, the Amitron, which would be powered by lithium batteries capable of holding 330 watt-hours of energy per kilogram. (That’s greater than the energy density of modern lithium-ion batteries.) Backers of the Amitron declared, “we don’t see a major obstacle in technology. It’s just a matter of time.”
* In 1979, the Washington Post claimed General Motors had achieved “a breakthrough in batteries” that “makes electric cars commercially practical.” The new zinc-nickel oxide batteries will provide the “100-mile range that General Motors executives believe is necessary to successfully sell electric vehicles to the public.”
* In 1980, the Washington Post claimed “practical electric cars can be built in the near future,” and that by 2000, the average family would own cars “tailored for the purpose for which they are most often used.” It went on to say that “In this new kind of car fleet, the electric vehicle could pay a big role – especially as delivery trucks and two-passenger urban commuter cars. With an aggressive production effort, they might save 1 million barrels of oil a day by the turn of the century.”
* In 2014, Tony Seba, an author who is currently a lecturer in “entrepreneurship, disruption, and clean energy” at Stanford University, declared, “By 2025, gasoline engine cars will be unable to compete with electric vehicles.” He continued, claiming that internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles “are toast.”
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I don’t own an electric car but I also have read that a stick in the eye will hurt. I believe that too. So I don’t need an electric car to know people are having trouble with them in cold weather as I’ve read.
We already took a rental model Y in the brutal temperatures in winter January 2023, starting in Baltimore and going to Virginia then North Carolina, then Ohio and back to Baltimore. That was the Hertz experience I described where they didn’t know diddly squat but once we got the model Y Long Range (and charged it 10 miles from the airport), we had little difficulty with it except in Ohio.
My folks live in Northeast Ohio, and there wasn’t a supercharger anywhere to be found within an hour drive after we got to our destination in the country. And with no 240v in my dad‘s garage we had to let it trickle in 110v and got by that way - cuz we weren't driving that much locally.
Tesla’s navigation system does a great job as long as you are going from A to point B. But it can kind of leave you with your pants down if you arrive at point B with 12% like it told you to (it does some kind of algorithm where it tries to get you to your destination with about 10-20% charge remaining to minimize stops between A&B) but then there is not a destination charger there at point B. So you learn that what you have to do is put your destination point B as a waypoint of a longer journey to point C, with point C being the NEXT place you're going to go after B. Then you will arrive at B with enough charge to get to C, not 12%. It's a game for sure and you have to know how to play it.
I live in Salt Lake City and killed an elk in Vernal Utah last winter also brutally cold single digits. In January we went to pick up the processed meat. I wanted to drive the Tesla, but there was no way of making it across the Uintah mountains and then back home unless we did this enormous loop through Price, Utah, that added 50+ miles to the trip. That’s because there’s a charger in Price that it wanted to circle us around to. So that trip was out for the Tesla, after I plugged it into the navigation as a round trip and saw the route it planned. Could have done it, took the Sprinter van instead. It is maddening that the round trip is only like 210 miles and the car SUPPOSEDLY has a range of 320 which is complete BS when it's cold out. So that 320 mile range needs some serious qualifiers so buyers know what they're getting themselves into. Also, note that if you just used google maps and saw Vernal is 105 miles each way, and just left mindlessly, you would have had a rude awakening when you got to Vernal and had less than 50% charge left and were not going to make it home without a detour. EVs are not for mindless dolts. You have to use your head and have a big enough frontal lobe to plan.
The auto pilot is a complete farce and a boondoggle. It does not work worth a squat and so the cameras being covered with road debris in winter is not an issue for me. I repeat: autopilot is a joke. Pretend it doesn't exist.
I have taken the MY out to the west desert of Utah on dirt roads on BLM land for long range shooting and I can rip at 70 miles an hour down those BLM dirt roads which is pretty remarkable. I take it out there often times because it’s like three dollars of electricity as opposed to $40 of diesel fuel round-trip in the van. Those savings really add up.
We took it to St. George multiple times, but once in the winter, we had an oversized bike rack for a cargo bike on the rear, and it was also very cold and it absolutely ruined the efficiency. In my opinion, you OUGHT to be able to go from Salt Lake to St. George (300 miles) stopping to charge only once in Beaver Utah. (Heck, if you buy the hype, my MY LR should have a range of 320 miles, so why do I need to stop at all???) We had to stop THREE (3!) times. The navigation system took far too long to recognize that the efficiency had been degraded (from about 3.5 to 2.5 miles per kwh) and it wanted us to do some screwy route and go east on I-70 out of our way to the charger there. Because I am not a moron, I did some mental math and figured out that if I slowed down to about 60 mph, I could make it to Beaver; I arrived with approximately 5%. Another woman along I-15 was not so intelligent or fortunate, and was being loaded onto a tow truck 10 miles north of the charging station. The driver told me an hour later that he gets one or more almost EVERY DAY. So, you have to monitor your consumption (mi/kwh) and the miles to the next charger, and intervene if the conditions have changed (mi/kwh) so you're not left "out in the cold".
I have taken off a tire with a nail in it and plugged it and put it back on in "no time flat" (pun!) so I don’t know what you’re saying about flat tires. I guess you're saying since there's no spare. Thankfully I have not had that problem. I did have a BMW 335i with no spare tho, so it's an emerging thing, run flats and all. Or you could buy a donut tire, I'm guessing, and put it in the trunk.
For many people all of these things might be deal killers. I get that. You have to either plan your life around a different set of contingencies, or only drive it locally in town or live in someplace like California where the charging network is more extensive. But this is just because the ICE fuel station infrastructure has had 100 years or more of head start on EV charging infrastructure. It's not an insurmountable barrier, but it is a barrier right now.
Right now, Tesla is the ONLY vehicle that is suitable for anything more than around town driving. Not a single other charging network offers even the bare minimum of reliability and ubiquity for any kind of travel more than 50 miles in one direction.
Finally, there is hardly a middle-class family with two adults in the country that does not have more than one vehicle. Let’s just set the threshold of income at $50,000. Almost everybody above that income is a two car family. One of them can almost always be an electric vehicle for the person who stays around town and carts the kid all around. That's the niche I see for EVs and Hybrids, not to replace ICE any time soon or even ever with current technology. I ride my bike 4 miles each way to work almost 365 days a year. If I didn't do that, a Nissan Leash would be a perfect car just dedicated to that commute. It would be nearly free to drive and maintain, even for a 30 mile commute each way. Almost free transportation.
Hopefully I answered all of your questions. Sorry for the long-winded answer.
If you’re not a staunch environmentalist, or an inveterate Penny-pincher, an EV will not be for you, except for as an around town vehicle possibly.
PS: And yes, other posters are correct that in Utah where the electricity mix is 70% coal, I am essentially driving a vehicle that burns coal. At least if I didn’t have 10 kW solar. It’s more complicated than that because I charge it in the middle of the night when there is no sun but oftentimes, surplus electricity. I would love if the green river nuclear plant would move forward, but it appears to be stalled. In 3 days, they're installing a 37 kwh, 100 AMP 24kw output home battery system. Even then, I will shut the battery off in the middle of the night and charge the Tesla on coal/natural gas. So there's def some truth to that and I'm stuck with it because of the electricity mix of Utah, which is one of the 5 worst in the country in terms of coal.
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dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks. That helps, but here’s some food for thought for other areas. Living in Salt Lake you’ll be somewhat familiar with Montana.
Your trip from Baltimore to say. Cincinnati Ohio. was likely a slightly shorter drive than from Libby Montana to Billings roughly 650 miles and can actually be driven comfortably in roughly 10 hours with stops. What kind of time would that take in the Tesla. Consider the population Densities along those routes and the difference in likely services available. Basically 1 million people in the state. Your trip probably had a population in the 10’s of millions. The lack of support in Montana is the main reason for people need to think long and hard about having one here because of the average Montana drive requirements.
The tire story is worth noting as you drive high speeds on dirt roads and back country in small towns. A pothole took out a sidewall. No repair possible. It is a specialty tire. Foam lined for quiet, low Rolling resistance for longer range. Not something you want to mix and match.
Tesla has great customer service, but Elon does not currently own a freight company. A flat tire on a Thursday afternoon made it too late to get one moving for overnight shipping. At the time no weekend deliveries by fed ex to the area. Absolute fastest arrival would have been Monday and possibly in time for installation. Showed up a day late as is common in rural areas. Customer was back on the road Wednesday morning. Installation and tire was done by discount tire. I believe the cost was all covered by Tesla roadside, but they would not have paid for a week in a hotel and meals.
I guess an Uber from Kalispell to Seattle or salt lake and back could have worked faster.
As you noted, the vehicle routing may not be reliable or convenient. Areas with little support like Montana, that could be interesting.
The environmental damage and cost I refer to is during production. Charging a battery is not much different than filing a gas tank when you get right down to it.
Numbers publicly available on the environmental impact of the Thackers pass lithium mine. 107 billion gallons of water pumped out of the aquafer each year. Producing lithium ore at a rate of 35,000 gallons per battery based on 136 pounds in the normal Tesla battery.
When the mine shuts down. The top layer, visual, will be restored in 5 years and is highly touted as an environmental miracle. The truth is that the water table will be contaminated and not safe for consumption due to arsenic and other toxic chemicals for a projected 350 years. Life of the mine is estimated at 50 years.
Lots to consider, the vehicles, in my opinion are a long way from being ready to replace what is currently used by most people. Building small roadside towns along the major corridors every 50 miles, which is the current plan, really is not a good solution.
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I agree with your environmental assessment and it saddens me.
I see EVs using current battery tech as "transitional vehicles" to a future (when?) using fuel cell or hydrogen powered vehicles, or some currently unknown technology. There is no way that they're going to make more than a small dent in global emissions. I hope that they continue to propel the search for something more sustainable.
When you get down to the brass tacks of the matter, nuclear is the only path forward. Solar, wind, batteries, all that is a pie in the sky. Can't scale any of it sufficiently to matter enough to chip away at the problem. I do get the sense that environmentalists and many politicians don't understand the fundamentals and are selling it to us as a placebo, hoping that some breakthrough tech will save us, or we can die deluded and pass the problem off to posterity.
I see EVs using current battery tech as "transitional vehicles" to a future (when?) using fuel cell or hydrogen powered vehicles, or some currently unknown technology. There is no way that they're going to make more than a small dent in global emissions. I hope that they continue to propel the search for something more sustainable.
When you get down to the brass tacks of the matter, nuclear is the only path forward. Solar, wind, batteries, all that is a pie in the sky. Can't scale any of it sufficiently to matter enough to chip away at the problem. I do get the sense that environmentalists and many politicians don't understand the fundamentals and are selling it to us as a placebo, hoping that some breakthrough tech will save us, or we can die deluded and pass the problem off to posterity.
Environmentally and financially, electric vehicles are a disaster. The energy needed to produce these vehicles far outweighs and savings garnered during their lifetime. At this time the battery replacement is reported to be between $5,000 and $20,000. As each year passes, the price increases. Want to take a long trip, be prepared to spend a lot of time in a charging station. No more five minutes at the gas pump and 450 miles between stops.
I will keep my gas guzzlers. They are so comfortable and my Toyota Sienna can carry seven passengers and easily do 500 miles between fill-ups
I will keep my gas guzzlers. They are so comfortable and my Toyota Sienna can carry seven passengers and easily do 500 miles between fill-ups
Good discussion, I enjoy reading the different points of view.
I know a year ago there was a lot of excitement about the lithium and battery companies. Most of them have lost about 2/3rds of their value in the last year.
I know a year ago there was a lot of excitement about the lithium and battery companies. Most of them have lost about 2/3rds of their value in the last year.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
To compare an EV trip with an ICE, compare the travel time estimate from the highest rated ABetterRoutePlanner.com to what Google Maps says your ICE will take. Make sure ABRP and Google are selecting the exact same route; you may have to "drag" the Google route to force it to take a different shunt, as ABRP must consider the locations of charge stations. Out in the vast Interior West that's the main problem. That's to compare the same route.
But to be fair, you really should let Google choose the fastest (usually shortest) route for the ICE, and compare the result to a longer route ABRP is forced to choose. It's fair to determine the real-world time penalty imposed by the EV's charging foibles.
I can tell you ABRP is conservative, erring on the side of safety. If the range estimate of the chosen vehicle suggests a 630-mile trip should require only 3 charge stops, ABRP may well have you top off 2 extra times. And ABRP may also choose a much longer route than Google, due to the dearth of charge stations on the more direct route.
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NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
Ignore those 3 bullet holes in the patients head. He died of COVID!! End of discussion.
I do not understand the unqualified hate of EVs. I have gone through a couple weeks of cold weather. For local driving within its range, my Toyota e vehicle is a joy to drive. It’s a fast, stable, responsive car, even in the snow. And it’s cheap to drive, and I charge at home. It was a pleasure to tear up my gas card. Admittedly, it’s not perfect. But it’s a good car.
Concerns <> unqualified hate.
IMO, many of the concerns are absolutely justified, when attempting to compare different methods of transportation. Variations in costs of production, extraction impacts (of raw matls), tailpipe emissions, performance (under the specific conditions a person requires it to be capable [ie, towing, year-'round operability including frigid cold and scorching heat]), replacement costs, recyclability of components. As well as net impacts on source-fuel consumption needed for the various platforms.
In short, it ain't all peaches 'n' cream. Every product's a mixed bag of pros and cons. Every single one. It's reasonable for people to consider all of the aspects and characteristics, beyond merely what a tailpipe emits and the vehicle's road performance.
I've got family that looks solely at the tailpipe emissions. Despite being bright enough to appreciate the other questions, they don't want to hear it since it muddies the belief.
I'm all for the basic utility gains from contemporary vehicles. I'm all for eliminating emissions. I'm all for the improved performance characteristics. I'm not nearly so prepared to suck up the greater depreciation, greater "engine" (battery) replacent costs, greater repair costs, poorer performance in period (and, with many, quite frequent) conditions. Solve those aspects, and it'll be a far simpler choice. Fix the originating fuels questions (extraction, transport, refining, storage, 'burning', clean-up), resulting in clear and unambiguous improvements ... then it'll be a slam dunk.
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