Theoretically perfect receiver?

[Alex Wheeler]

I have all kinds of ideas for the perfect action. Many of them would prevent it from being a fast action though. When I hit the lottery I will make an action I loose money on but it will be fun.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Theoretically perfect for what.
hunting, prs, BR, f class, Palma?

 

[DaveTooley]

Many so called improvements have been real world tested over the last 4 decades. Many have not stood the test of battle. We go around in a circle and end up pretty much where we started. Take the two lug action. We can't get away from it. Everything mechanical is a compromise in its application. That's no different with actions. A perceived gain in one area means a compromise in another. New and improved doesn't always work. We know for a fact that altering/tuning the ignition system can improve accuracy. When I talk precision to non gun mechanics I use these words. Parallel, perpendicular, concentric and SF. SF stands for stress free. Every part has its own natural resting place. A place where it's happy. If by design or tolerances you force it into position you are introducing a variable. More variables means more personality. Eliminate the weirdness, uniqueness and you have a system that responds predictably to the tuning process.

What do mean by this?

 

[shooterjon]

So, in bolt action receivers, there are basically 2 forms.
One with front locking lugs.
And one with rear locking lugs.
Either way, one end of the bolt is left "free hanging".

Would a bolt that locked at both the front and the rear be possible?
My line of thinking, is it would provide more support than allowing one end of the bolt unsupported.

Thoughts?

What about Weatherby Accumarks, Available in 6 or 9 lug bolts?
I know y
My 300 Weatherby in 300 win mag is a 9 lug configuration and shoots lites out.Will shoot a 180 gr. faqctory load in 3/4 to 3/8 inch all day ,and this rifle has never been accurized.Just shot it as it came out of thr box.
Just me thinkin!

 

[DaveTooley]

What about Weatherby Accumarks, Available in 6 or 9 lug bolts?
I know y
My 300 Weatherby in 300 win mag is a 9 lug configuration and shoots lites out.Will shoot a 180 gr. faqctory load in 3/4 to 3/8 inch all day ,and this rifle has never been accurized.Just shot it as it came out of thr box.
Just me thinkin!

Great hunting accuracy.

 

[std7mag]

Theoretically perfect for what.
hunting, prs, BR, f class, Palma?

Thinking more BR, F Class, and Palma.

 

[Brians356]

Be careful what you wish for. It might not be what you expected.

"When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers." Oscar Wilde
-

 

[davidjoe]

Many so called improvements have been real world tested over the last 4 decades. Many have not stood the test of battle. We go around in a circle and end up pretty much where we started.

M-700? (1911) (.308) (Jeep) (4350) (M-4 1:7)

 

[std7mag]

What about Weatherby Accumarks, Available in 6 or 9 lug bolts?
I know y
My 300 Weatherby in 300 win mag is a 9 lug configuration and shoots lites out.Will shoot a 180 gr. faqctory load in 3/4 to 3/8 inch all day ,and this rifle has never been accurized.Just shot it as it came out of thr box.
Just me thinkin!

They still only lock at the front of the bolt.

 

[DaveTooley]

They still only lock at the front of the bolt.

OK you get your multi position locking lug action. How do you get perfect bolt lug to action lug alignment in the axial plane? Ok lets say you get that to work. Here's the weirdness I was talking about. You have a cylinder with a loading port cut out. You have just applied a load to the rear lugs and the action has a wonky ( technical term) reaction to the imbalance. What tools do you have to tune out the wonky? The Rem 788 with rear lugs shot well enough but had issues handling pressure.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Keep thinking about this. The action has FAR more impact on consistent accuracy than people give it credit for. The difference between a really good rifle that always seems to get good barrels and one that seems to be picky is in the action. Many guys say barrels and bullets. I say actions, barrels, and bullets (and reamers)

 

[M-61]

I think the floating bolt head on-a Savage eliminates many problems as it ‘cuts down’ on stress if there is misalignment.
After the lugs on a bolt are locked, isn’t anything after that really not needed? (For accuracy or strength)
Those ‘Ball bearing’ type locks on some European bolt actions I would think solve some stress problems but I’ve never run into anyone using them in breach rest.
As I’ve said before I’m an expert in nothing so the above is merely my thoughts.
Although my Savages are fantastic and I’m sure they can shoot more accurate than I can get them to do. Floating bolt head?

 

[Will Henry]

In theory, a three lug action will provide improved alignment under load but one would be hard pressed to demonstrate any real advantage. I had some great results with the three lug Wichita action but had great results with two lug actions as well. There was an action which used a coned locking lug seat for which the builder made some claims the claims may well have had some validity; at least theoretically. Likewise, similar claims are made for the angled seat (like on an Enfield) The ultimate might be three lugs with coned seats and lugs and triple bumps at the rear. Oh, and a vertical contact between cocking piece and sear to reduce upward deflection at that point.
Remington conceded that the 788 bolt did compress to a certain extent, It seems to me it was something like a couple tenths per thousand pounds of bolt thrust or something. I think it's in Otteson's book but I'm too lazy to get up and look!
The Lee Enfield compresses the bolt and the receiver stretches and deflects downward at the rear. It is probably this deflection which accounts for the famous ability of the Lee Enfield to compensate for ballistic variations at long range.
When I loaded a Lee Enfield to failure, the bolt literally had an "s" curve in it and the rear of the receiver was noticeably bent downward.
Savage's floating bolt head is pretty hit and miss. I have three of them downstairs and none of them float at all. They all fit pretty tight. One thing the Savage does have is a trigger system which does not deflect the bolt at all.
I believe it was Champlin which made a three lug action which also had three ribs which acted as safety lugs. They did not contact the receiver but were clear by about .010", as I recall. On further reflection, I can't be sure if this was the Champlin or the Texas Magnum. I'm sure someone will know. WH

 

[Dusty Stevens]

In theory, a three lug action will provide improved alignment under load but one would be hard pressed to demonstrate any real advantage. I had some great results with the three lug Wichita action but had great results with two lug actions as well. There was an action which used a coned locking lug seat for which the builder made some claims the claims may well have had some validity; at least theoretically. Likewise, similar claims are made for the angled seat (like on an Enfield) The ultimate might be three lugs with coned seats and lugs and triple bumps at the rear. Oh, and a vertical contact between cocking piece and sear to reduce upward deflection at that point.
Remington conceded that the 788 bolt did compress to a certain extent, It seems to me it was something like a couple tenths per thousand pounds of bolt thrust or something. I think it's in Otteson's book but I'm too lazy to get up and look!
The Lee Enfield compresses the bolt and the receiver stretches and deflects downward at the rear. It is probably this deflection which accounts for the famous ability of the Lee Enfield to compensate for ballistic variations at long range.
When I loaded a Lee Enfield to failure, the bolt literally had an "s" curve in it and the rear of the receiver was noticeably bent downward.
Savage's floating bolt head is pretty hit and miss. I have three of them downstairs and none of them float at all. They all fit pretty tight. One thing the Savage does have is a trigger system which does not deflect the bolt at all.
I believe it was Champlin which made a three lug action which also had three ribs which acted as safety lugs. They did not contact the receiver but were clear by about .010", as I recall. On further reflection, I can't be sure if this was the Champlin or the Texas Magnum. I'm sure someone will know. WH

Sounds like you should check out the offerings from american rifle company. They are a work of engineering beauty

 

[Tommie]

Remington conceded that the 788 bolt did compress to a certain extent, It seems to me it was something like a couple tenths per thousand pounds of bolt thrust or something.

A couple tenths? Of an inch?

 

[natdscott]

A couple tenths? Of an inch?

No, he is speaking in terms of machining dimensions.

A “tenth” = 0.0001”, in the language, because the sun rises and sets on a thousandth (0.001”).

But think through your question: if a bolt body or lug yielded even HALF of 1/10th of an inch…wouldn’t you be picking pieces of bolt out of your cheekbone? Yes, if you were lucky. 0.050” yield anyplace is a catastrophic failure, and instantly becomes 24” of grenade-like explosive expansion.

 

[Tommie]

No. He is speaking in terms of machining dimensions.

A “tenth” = 0.0001”, in the language, because the sun rises and sets on a thousandth (0.001”).

But think through your question: if a bolt body or lug yielded even HALF of 1/10th of an inch…wouldn’t you be picking pieces of bolt out of your cheekbone? Yes, if you were lucky. 0.050” yield anyplace is a catastrophic failure, and instantly becomes 24” of grenade-like explosive expansion.

Ok full confession: I knew he was referring to fractions of a thousandth. Even I can do that math. Just thought some clarification might be needed.

 

[natdscott]

Ok full confession: I knew he was referring to fractions of a thousandth. Even I can do that math. Just thought some clarification might be needed.

Rgr that. Never know, on these internets.

 

[Cloudrepair]

How about a four lug with two following.
It have more strength and the same bolt throw as a two lug

 

[DaveTooley]

How about a four lug with two following.
It would be easier to lap and have more strength and the same bolt throw as a two lug

Explain to me how lapping can get six surfaces in full 100% contact. Many are under the impression that lapping replaces proper machine work. It doesn't. Lapping mates two surfaces together. If they are not machined properly to start with you're using a high spot on one piece to make a low spot on the other piece. You don't end up with two perfectly flat surfaces. With that being said I do lap the action lugs, action lugs only, on some actions that come through in small quantity. I use a piloted lap that I continually true up as the process proceeds.