• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

223 single digit S.D.

There have been many past discussions here with regard to the typically high ES/SD values of .223 Rem F-TR loads relative to the larger calibers used in F-TR (.308 Win) or F-Open. It is a fairly common malady that most F-TR shooters using .223 Rem in F-TR will experience at one time or another. I have been shooting .223s with 88-95 gr "heavies" in F-TR for a number of years. When I first had the idea of shooting a .223 Rem with 90 VLDs in F-TR, information regarding that specific combination on the internet was quite scarce...a piece here, a little nugget over there, so it was necessary to try and piece it all together to make the most informed choices regarding the rifle build as I could, and basically learn the nuances of reloading for it by trial and error once the build was finished.

Early on, the best combination I found with 90 VLDs was Lapua brass, Fed 205 primers, and H4895 powder. After adding a second dedicated .223 Rem F-TR rifle to the stable and many years of experimentation later, I have still not found a combination that is demonstrably better. Both of my rifle wear 30" Bartlein 5R barrels that have no-turn neck chambers (0.2527" according to the reamer print) with at least 0.169" freebore. Both chambers/reamers I have are based on PTG's 223 Rem ISSF original reamer specs, with the only difference being that one has a little longer freebore.

I generally run the 90s at around 2830-2840 fps in competition loads. The primary downside to these loads is that they are on the warm side and brass life is poor, typically no more than 4 firings, sometimes even less. In my hands, the average/typical ES values for 5-shot strings will range in the ~17 to 25 fps range. I might occasionally observe an ES value slightly lower or higher, i.e. as low as ~10-15 fps or as high as ~30-35 fps, but upper teens to mid 20s is the norm. I do not routinely pay much attention to SD values, as I'm much more concerned with the small number velocity outliers in any given string of fire and the effect they can have on vertical. That is because in a match, it will usually be a small number of shots that are velocity outliers that cause one to drop points "out the corners", or slightly high/low, that can kill your score. SD values do not always accurately reflect these outliers. It is also important to note that although reloaders often utilize and report ES/SD values obtained for 5-shot, or less commonly, 10-shot strings as obtained during the load development process, the ES/SD values obtained over the 20-shot strings we typically fire in matches will normally be much higher due to the larger sample size. For load comparison and evaluation, 5-shot strings can work if used consistently, but it is important to be aware that such a small sample size can sometimes be misleading. In other words, one can sometimes obtain what seem to be awesome ES/SD values for a 5-shot string during load development, only to find out that those values may increase BIGLY during the course of a 20-shot string. Nonetheless, we most often use velocity data from smaller strings during load development to preserve barrel life.

This may seem to be an obvious point, but with the long strings of fire in F-Class matches (typically 25+ shots), one of the most important factors is consistent velocity during a string of fire. Average velocity may vary as much as 10 or 20 fps to one side or the other with respect temperature and atmospheric changes from match to match, or on different days, dependent on the powder/primer/bullet combination used. What we absolutely don't want is for it vary much within a single match. To address this issue, I typically sort Lot #s of Lapua brass into at least 3 weight groups; light, medium, and heavy. I have observed on numerous occasions that there can be variance in average velocity as high as 25 to 30 fps between the lightest and heaviest cases within a single Lot. I have determined water volume and case weight for literally thousands of pieces of Lapua .223 Rem brass over the years and I can tell you with absolute certainty that case volume is inversely proportional to case weight. There will always be those that wish to debate this point, but I'm not really interested in arguing over something that is a demonstrable fact. The good thing about this relationship is that sorting cases by weight is much easier and faster than using case volume, which is far more difficult and tedious to measure accurately. Sorting cases by weight doers not necessarily mean that you will eliminate all velocity outliers, but it will generally improve overall consistency, which is really all that we're trying to accomplish. So with a little effort, one can generally improve consistency, and at the very least sorting cases by weight will never make any velocity variance worse.

Another critical facet of reloading for the .223 Rem is consistent neck tension. I use a bushing that is approximately .001" smaller than I would use if the bushing were to be the sole sizing step, followed by expansion with the appropriate mandrel to yield approximately .002" neck tension (interference fit). Again, consistency is the key here. I do not find a great deal of difference between about .0015" and .0025", as long as they are all the same. Along this line, it is my belief that turning case necks might pay some additional small dividend in terms of reducing ES/SD. However, I simply have never been able to force myself to start turning necks and my results have so far been satisfactory without doing so. In any event, turning necks may be worth consideration in some circumstances.

Edited to add: I weigh powder to +/- one kernel or less, and I still obtain ES values of upper teens to mid 20s with my .223 Rem loads. Weighing powder to a finer increment does not have any further beneficial result in my hands. So in effect, I have removed charge weight variance as a variable in terms of lowering ES any further. I have always weighed powder to this fine an increment, so I cannot state with any certainty how large the charge weight variance can go before it does become a limiting source of error in terms of ES. It may be that if one were only weighing charges for .223 Rem loads to +/- to 0.1 to 0.2 gr or higher, there might be some benefit to using a finer increment, but I've never done that so I can't really say.

In summary, I have found over the years that using the right powder/primer combination for a given bullet weight is important for maintaining consistent velocity with the .223 Rem. Likewise, sorting cases by weight and maintaining uniform neck tension are also critical. But there is an additional point I will make here that is also worth consideration for anyone that may be agonizing over how to reduce ES/SD in their .223 Rem match loads. A couple years ago, I had spun a new barrel onto my original .223 F-TR rifle that was one of several that had been chambered at the same time. It had been sitting in a closet for several years awaiting its turn, so I decided to run a few patches through it. Unfortunately, I stupidly grabbed a .30 cal cleaning rod, which became stuck in the chamber. I have inspected the chamber/barrel numerous times with a borescope and I cannot detect any anomalies. Nonetheless, that barrel routinely generates velocity ES values from 50 fps, to as high as 90 fps, with handloads that typically be in the upper teens to mid 20s in a different barrel. I can't tell what I did to the barrel, but clearly jamming the .30 cal rod into the chamber did something bad to it. Notably, accuracy/precision did not seem to be affected, only velocity. As a result, I have only used this barrel for practice and fire-forming brass because I had others ready to go for competition that I had not jammed a .30 cal cleaning rod into ;). The important point is that I have shot many strings through the [damaged] fire-forming barrel at 600 yd and it is readily capable of shooting cleans with high X-counts, even with stupidly high ES/SD values. Obviously, at 800 to 1000 yd the effect of such high velocity variance would be a killer, but out to 600 yd, it just doesn't seem to matter nearly as much as I would have expected. The take-home message from this is that of course we would all like to have ES values well under 10 fps for 20+ shot strings. But that is simply not very realistic with a .223 Rem loaded with heavies. So my advice is to do what you can to keep the ES/SD values as low as you can reasonably get them, then go out and shoot and enjoy the experience with agonizing about the ES/SD. With currently-available technology such as the LabRadar and Shotmarker systems, one can readily obtain sufficient coincident velocity and POI information to convince themselves whether velocity variance is the primary underlying cause of excessive vertical on the target. Because I do this at pretty much every shooting session, I can relate that in my experience, high ES/SD does not always mean excessive vertical. In other words, the extreme high/low velocity outliers within a given shot string do not always correspond to the highest/lowest impacts on the target face. So the poor ES/SD values typically associated with .223 Rem loads may not in reality have quite the negative effect that it would appear on the surface that they should have, out to 600 yd, at least. It's certainly worth some effort to try and keep the ES/SD as low as possible. However, it's also worth keeping the law of diminishing returns in mind at the same time.
 
Last edited:
Nice write up Mr. Ned :)
I'm still a rookie at F class. Retired with a lot of free time so I'll continue to sort brass (thanks for the support).
I weigh bullets, and now sort primers :). Brass prep is with a body die, set for 0.002 bump which I can feel at the end of the stroke with once/twice fired brass. Necks seem to be consistent with a collet die.
I shoot a round a little bigger than the .223, putting me at a disadvantage in F-Open.
But my goal is to improve MY scores.
I need to improve me to realize any benefit from this effort. Hopefully this Spring/Summer.
Again, thanks for the support post.
 
Average velocity may vary as much as 10 or 20 fps to one side or the other with respect temperature and atmospheric changes from match to match, or on different days, dependent on the powder/primer/bullet combination used. What we absolutely don't want is for it vary much within a single match.
Nice write up Ned.
I agree and will only add that a good goal for the load development process is to keep those averages within the tune window. The width of that window is good to know and is found during load testing, but it should be manageable with good discipline. Barrel tuners might save a trip on a bad day, but are a discussion for another day.
 
Nice write up Ned.
I agree and will only add that a good goal for the load development process is to keep those averages within the tune window. The width of that window is good to know and is found during load testing, but it should be manageable with good discipline. Barrel tuners might save a trip on a bad day, but are a discussion for another day.
Agreed. I didn't comment on that directly because of an already [excruciatingly] long post and the fact that typical ES/SD values obtained with .223 Rem loads are already very close to or even larger than the optimal tune window in my hands. Sometimes, we simply have to do the best we can during development and at the reloading bench, accept the fact that the load may not be "perfect", and just go out and do the best we can with it in matches and enjoy the experience. I think loading for the .223 Rem is a good example of of that. I am quite prone to agonizing over minute details during load development, and I'm not certain that the significant extra time/effort involved with that kind of OCD behavior is guaranteed to pay off in terms of improving my scores in every single instance. I'd like to think that going the extra mile does [usually] pay off, which is why I continue to do it. But I also suspect that approach extracts a certain toll that may not be beneficial, or at least the very best method to use for every single competitor out there. Knowing what is absolutely essential and what might be excessive can sometimes be a very gray area.
 
This kind of shooting, specifically pushing the 223 distance and accuracy out past 600, was something I learned late in life. The GOV had no interest in the concept so I didn't learn it till near retirement and found myself with more time at my clubs where a few rare folks were pushing 223 to the limits.

By watching the wizards of the sport, I was amazed at the times a 223 beat a 308. Heck, there were times a 223 score was higher than the open scores, but that was on days when folks like Bob Gill were on the line. It takes skill and dedication to run 223 past 600 yards and beat the field. His views line up well with Ned's.

The beauty of a club match, is sometimes everyone agrees that a LabRadar can be run on the whole shot string to collect muzzle velocity. This happened a lot when we were Beta testing the e-targets.

What we learned was that the muzzle SD/ES was still decent, but did not correlate to the best groups at times, other times it did. (Keep in mind, most of those involved were HM and many have several championships to their names, so they have been well past the learning curves. Their bad days equate to things most of us aspire to on our good days.)

In 223, decent was roughly an SD of 15. When it went very much above that, there was something going wrong or out of tune, and when it went below that it didn't necessarily show the best groups but sometimes it did. The focus on those days was the correlation of the target holes to the e-target data, so I regret not keeping better data on the guns/loads/tunes.

On the windy days, which were most of them, we didn't get good correlation between muzzle velocity and the e-targets in terms of stats, but the averages at the targets were indicative of the calculated dope. On the calm days, when we saw good SD/ES at the targets and the muzzle, we were happy. My recollection was the tight 223 groups at 1000 generally had an SD below 15 even at the target. It takes a sonic speed to get an e-target to work.

I can also tell you that when a projectile twist rate and speed fall out, the SD/ES will also fall out as the effective BC is affected. So before you try to take a 223 too far, keep in mind there are more requirements than just your muzzle stats. You end up needing a balanced set of issues to send 223 to distance on windy days. You end up with long barrels, long heavy bullets, and pressures that chew up brass, so this isn't a good place for beginners.

There are some concepts about distance accuracy and precision that are mysterious even when the resources of the GOV labs, the industry, and the sport shooters, are all brought to bear. When going out past 300 to 1000 yards, depending on the context, your priorities as a beginner need to be balanced.

If you are to benefit from the experience of the forum, it is to learn that for the time being you do need to pay attention to everything but don't get fixated on the chronograph at the expense of the target. By all means, you use the chronograph to monitor the loading process, but once you get to a certain level with a 223 in a match setting, prioritize the groups while using the chrono to manage the velocity levels on average. Inside of 300 yrds, if you cannot shoot the difference, don't focus on the chronograph. As always, YMMV.

ETA: sorry for the long posts, you can tell I am stuck for the day....
 
For a short time while my supply lasted, I was getting high but still consistently sub 10 SD's rather consistently using 24.2 Shooters World Precision, Lapua Brass, Rem 7-1/2 primers, Berger 85.5 Hybrids at -.120 off jam, (Yes minus 120) through a Shilen 1/7 match select with 2000+ rounds. But sad to say unicorn teeth are easier to come by than those components. But this was the only combination that seemed to get that tight, and for the life of me I cannot get any ball powder below 20, and the Hodgdon Rep basically told me that is the case with the short neck as mentioned above.
 
To address this issue, I typically sort Lot #s of Lapua brass into at least 3 weight groups; light, medium, and heavy. I have observed on numerous occasions that there can be variance in average velocity as high as 25 to 30 fps between the lightest and heaviest cases within a single Lot.

A very interesting finding indeed. I've always weight-sorted newly bought lots of Lapua brass into a couple of 'match groups' then used the few remaining outliers for practice, but you're taking it a step further. Food for thought.

(As an aside, all this batching has left me with umpteen little boxes of penny numbers of batched but 'spare' cases. I keep running across them.)
 
A very interesting finding indeed. I've always weight-sorted newly bought lots of Lapua brass into a couple of 'match groups' then used the few remaining outliers for practice, but you're taking it a step further. Food for thought.

(As an aside, all this batching has left me with umpteen little boxes of penny numbers of batched but 'spare' cases. I keep running across them.)
The most rigorous, intricate, involved, ultimate sort you can possibly do will leave you with only one bullet/case/primer per sorting group. ;)
 
Many interesting replies to my call for assistance, and I thank you.
The bottom line the .223 don't go toe to toe with the .308's at 1000yds with the fullbore restrictions in place.
Using a faster burning powder is an interesting idea that I will follow thru on.
Steve Bair
 
Many interesting replies to my call for assistance, and I thank you.
The bottom line the .223 don't go toe to toe with the .308's at 1000yds with the fullbore restrictions in place.
Using a faster burning powder is an interesting idea that I will follow thru on.
Steve Bair
It depends. Some shooters have had success, others haven't. The NRA national Palma match has been won by a 223 the last 2 year if I'm not mistaken
 
I don't typically even Chrono enough to check SD/ES on 223 loads for 600yd fclass. Based on shotmarker targets I have, 9 is about the best SD I have and some as much as 15. Like Nedd, I prefer to use ES when getting into the details.

If I shot 1k with a 223 it might matter more to chase good ES, especially on the Fclass target. I just don't know how much it matters at 600 with a good load.

034345EF-BB11-4E13-96EF-23767BFFAA16.jpeg
 
Finally got some time to work up loads again and retest from last fall.
.223, 30” 1:7 Bartlein, .169 free bore, Borden Acton. Berger 85.5’s , .002 neck tension, .005” jump, H4895, LC weight sorted brass, Fed Match primers. Wife shooting 100 yds overcast 52 deg

Also did seating tests on 90vld over Varget. Trying to find the sweet spot. More to come on that next few weeks.

7FD7667A-9CA9-4460-9716-37C9F0CB33E5.jpegA65B175C-9002-442D-B058-F8CD33A3AF20.jpeg
 
I must be one of the lucky ones this is 10 shots out of my factory Tikka 223 Varmint slow speed I know but apparently Tikkas have a slow barrels nothing special just a burger 80 grain vld 24.5 grains of varget cci 450 primer and once fired Remington brass out of m4 rifles resized trimmed chamfered that's it .
It would probably be better the 2733 was first shot out of the barrel when I got to the range which is usually faster delete that even more respectable .
20220404_191038.jpg
 
Last year I shot a string of 5 that had an SD of 9, with my 1:8 twist 223 Bartlein on a Remington 700 action. I was at the range and a guy let me shoot over his Labradar.

Load was once fired Lapua brass, hand trickled 23.1 8208XBR, 77 TMK, and Federal 205 primer. The brass was sized with a Mighty Armory sizing die that has the built in mandrel. I'm not sure if it was pure luck or an awesome load, as I shot one string and moved back to my bench to let the Labradar owner continue shooting.
 
Last edited:
I believe single digit SD is achievable. Consistencies is the more difficult part with this caliber. This is my 3rd .223 build for FTR and I honestly can say the most accurate one yet. This barrel had 1200 rounds on it last year and about 2000 total now. Curious how it does this year.
 
I have found that a light factory crimp lowered SD ~ 25%, in the 223 Rem.

The load was H 4895 , Lapua brass and a Hornaday 75gn A-max.

Used a Lee Ultimate die set to produce ammo in 223.
 
Use brass from the same lot (save frustration and buy a couple hundred premium brass).

Full length size in a standard non bushing die, with expander removed or custom sized to just touch (.5-1 thou over ID) the inside on the way out. Or use expander mandrel very close to ID. Minimize your headspace. Size until the bolt just starts to close without resistance.

Use a good stick powder from the faster side of the burn rate spectrum for the case but still gets good case fill (benchmark up to probably n135 but in a long barrel n140 and varget can work with really heavy for caliber pills). You may lose a little velocity doing this but a little more drop is acceptable if your vertical gets tightened.

Use a scale you are confident can achieve accurate results.

Measure and individually seat base to ogive for every loaded round. Micrometer seating dies help here.

Test a few primers to see which gives the most consistent ignition.

Big one, store your powder and primers properly. Control for heat and humidity. Both can bite you badly.

Chamfer and debur after cleaning. If you want to be super sure brush your neck ID and trim all to the same neck length (not brass OAL, neck length).

There's a million other things primer seating depth, deburred flash holes, cleaning methods, ect. But just make the brass as dimensionally consistent as possible, add the same amount of powder each time, seat to the same B2O length, and use a good primer and most of that other stuff becomes irrelevant in its effect for most people.
 
This is with the new Reloder 15.5. it's slower burning than 15, but has better temp stability. The 223 tends to be more difficult due to the much smaller case capacity compared to the 308. I still need to do load development on my m14, unfortunately below zero temps aren't conducive to load development.

Technically it is called TS 15.5.
 
Just realize that in the final measure on target or across the chronograph may or may not actually be impacted by our OCD.

This should be in a banner at the top of the forum.

It is my observation that the accuracy shooting sport is dominated by the idea that OCD is the sport. Not target shooting. The very idea that if one loses sleep obsessing over self perceived "critical" factors, it MUST improve performance. As if nearly clinical levels of OCD are worth extra points at the next match.

The best shooters read the wind the best, dope the best, and have repeatable hold and trigger release.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,781
Messages
2,203,014
Members
79,110
Latest member
miles813
Back
Top