"Out Dated" .308 Win

[Hohn]

So what does the 6cm do that a 243 win don’t do??

Well a Ferrari and a 49 mercury will both get you to the store..

 

[Delfuego]

It is no different that the really old guy jack-jawing you at the range that his mosin-nagant is more accurate than anything newer or how the 7 carcano is the cat's meow.

Happy Friday all!

 

[Hohn]

Of one must really shut down the Creed, just mention the 6 BRA........

They’re close enough I wouldn’t try to argue a big difference. Both offer excellent brass in small primers and will push high bc bullets to sufficient speed.

Barrel life varies enough with powder that I don’t think the lighter BRA charge weight is consequential.

That said, if I were building a dedicated 6mm single shot gun, it would be a BRA or Dasher.

 

[shoot4fun]

The 6 Creedmoor is my favorite; no wait.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is my favorite; no wait.
The 6BR is my favorite; no wait.
The 6BRA is my favorite; no wait.
The 6 Dasher is my favorite; no wait.
The 308 is my favorite; no wait.
Ugh! I'm so confused.
Well, I definitely don't call the 22LR my favorite; no wait.
It's the 12 gauge! Yeah, that's it. That's my favorite for sure.
No, wait.........

 

[rogina]

Wasn't there some guy in SR BR who was smoking everyone with a 30-30 for a few years? Kinda puts things in perspective when you think about that.

I do still have irrational fear/anger towards certain cartridges though.

Maybe John Emery from Colorado?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Maybe John Emery from Colorado?

It was Michael Turner from Texas. I never met him, but looks like he used to shoot at the same range where we shoot F-Class.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?95849-Why-I-Shoot-the-30-30-in-Benchrest

Edit: I know nothing about BR. I just find it highly amusing that a 30-30 could ever out-agg a PPC.

 

[wkdickinson]

Well a Ferrari and a 49 mercury will both get you to the store..

Seems that John Whidden has done really quite well with the old 49 Mercury.

 

[grovey]

So what does the 6cm do that a 243 win don’t do??

Works out of a S/A mag box , and doesn't give up any velocity.

 

[wa11abee]

Whatever gun I am shooting at the time I am shooting it..is my favorite gun. The goal is to have them ALL!!!

 

[rr2030]

So what does the 6cm do that a 243 win don’t do??

My desire was to buy a .243 with a 8 or faster twist. Impossible unless I wanted a custom built rifle. The exception was the RPR in .243. Before I could get my hands on one, Ruger discontinued that offering and later replaced it with the 6 Creedmoor with 1:7.7 twist. SO that's what I purchased, and have been shooting it and enjoying the impressive accuracy, in spite of my 66 year old Caracas behind the glass and trigger. How accurate ? I shoot a 10" plate @ 1000 yards, typically (not always) 8 of 10 are hits. It produces ragged one hole groups @ 100 yards all with factory ammunition. OH, an I am shooting off a wooden bench with a Harris bi-pod and a sock full of rice for a rear bag.

Now, back to the question: what does the 6cm do that a 243 win don’t do?

Answer: most off the shelf rifles chambered in 6 Creedmoor have a faster twist that is desirable to shoot the heavier-longer bullets.

I guess you can say the 6 Creedmoor is to the .243, what the .243 was to the .244 Remington.

 

[CZ_Lilja]

That's a great story. It reminded me so much of my local pistol range, when I almost always shoot 1911s because I love their design.

"I wouldn't go into battle with that" (yes, someone actually muttered that to his buddy)
"That's a hundred year old design"
"That thing is so unreliable"

Then, they spray bullets all over the target, its wood frame, and the berm behind it with their Glocks.

 

[Hohn]

What ever became of the old .270? Is it still even made?

This pretty funny, but theres an element of truth to it. The generations that didn’t grow up with relentless .270 propaganda from Jack O’Connor are likely to overlook it. Or at least more likely to approach it with some skepticism.

In an era of Ballistic apps and such, people rely less upon what a gun writer might say.

Let’s say you’re a younger guy looking to buy your first hunting rifle and you have two friends giving conflicting advice. One says buy a .270. The other says get a 6.5 creedmoor.

You plug the common hunting loads into a ballistic app, choosing the Hornady 143 ELD-x factory load for 6.5 and the Federal 130 Nosler ballistic Tip.

The app shows that the .270 starts with 350lb-ft more energy at the muzzle, but by 300y they are dead even in energy.

The .270 shoots flatter of course, dropping 38.4” at 500y vs 43.9” for the 6.5. At 300y, the difference is only 3” favoring the .270. (200y zero).

Using a 4” vital zone radius, the .270 has a 271y MPBR. The 6.5 gives 10y less.

And the 6.5 has a perpetual windage advantage. It shoots comfortably inside this .270 load at every distance.

Is the flatness advantage enough to justify nearly 50% more recoil and having to use a long action? Is the short range energy advantage enough?

I think there’s a pretty good argument here that the 6.5 is close enough to the .270 that choosing the lower recoil makes a lot of sense. Being able to use detachable box magazines might seal the deal.

Of course, if Remington hadn’t screwed up the .260 with their classic combination of poor reamer design, slow twist, and incompetent marketing, we’d likely never have heard of anything Creedmoor.

 

[INTJ]

They’re close enough I wouldn’t try to argue a big difference. Both offer excellent brass in small primers and will push high bc bullets to sufficient speed.

Barrel life varies enough with powder that I don’t think the lighter BRA charge weight is consequential.

That said, if I were building a dedicated 6mm single shot gun, it would be a BRA or Dasher.

The BRA dominates LR BR, and if the Creed were able to run with it we'd see it being used more in LR BR. The 6 BRA seems to have that magic mix of the min case capacity needed to reach the optimum velocity for the 6mm caliber for that application.

It's not so much of what cartridge is better or worse than another as it is what cartridge best fits the intended application. I think the 6.5 creed made a splash because it was a low recoil round that fit PRS well and PRS became very popular. PRS is not a high accuracy competition, and it's not a place where ultra high BC bullets are required. However PRS seems to need a pretty accurate round and reasonably high BC bullets. Add to that how factory match ammo is available and it makes sense why it's so popular in PRS. I also like the idea of a 6.5 Creed as a low recoil light deer rifle, and I think the US Military is looking at it for a machine gun round.

It will be interesting to see if the 6 BRA continues to dominate LR BR like the 6 PPC dominates short range BR. Or maybe we'll stumble across something better and the BRA will slowly fade away like the Dasher.

I think the next evolution in LR BR would be a round with a 7-.8 BC bullet that will match the BRAs accuracy in good conditions.

 

[Nature Boy]

This is THE definitive thread on this subject. In my humble opinion, it should be a sticky at the top of each and every forum on ASF

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...for-any-type-of-competition-shooting.3952696/

 

[xswanted]

I have zero allegiance to the “almostmoor” but I will say this.....

Im not 40 yet but getting there. I’ve been shooting since I was little. Shooting competitively in some form since I was 8. My primary silhouette rifle was a 308 for the entire time I shot.

I learned how to shoot it, how to figure out my clicks for P,T,R without an app or computer, how to load for it and how to actually use the gun. It shot well and to this day (it’s no longer a silhouette gun but a heavier rifle I can shoot prone) i don’t feel terribly disadvantaged with it.

After growing older and having my own money to spend on my own toys, I can say the generation I’m part of and especially guys younger than me, are all about stats.

Guys, and I’m guilty of it to, base everything off what a chart says. Especially analytical type people. They see the difference in a 6.5 to a 308 and jump right to the end conclusion that it will perform better in their hands. Call it the “intstant gratification generation”.

The reality is, that’s where their money will go and because of some genius marketing from Hornady and others, the 6.5 Ineedalittlemoor will be purchased rather than the old 308.

Outdated might not quite be the right word. Maybe “aged” would be more appropriate and we all know what happens to wine and violins as this happens.

Less capable in any way shape or form? Absolutely not.

Shooting quite a few different fancy 6mm’s and big 22’s that should beat the lowly old 308 hands down, and do on paper everytime I look up the ballistics, I regularly get outshot by my old man and his “outdated” 308.

Im glad to see the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6 Creedmoor get the attention in our sport. It’s brought a HUGE amount of new shooters and gun owners to the long range game that previously wouldn’t have been shooting. It’s given us new types of factory rifles, bullets and optics that have a purpose in the shooting community that we might not have had otherwise. We all know the Creedmoor stereotype and it will continue to be a blast beating them with outdated stuff.

 

[xswanted]

I’ll also say this.......

I had a 6 Dasher built in about a 14-15 pound gun for F class and informal target shooting.

I decided to finally go to a actual F Class match and see what I could do with it. At this point in time I had shot a LOT of benchrest and prone shooting but had never done it at a range in front of anyone. I knew the gun would perform at 600 yards very well if I could do my job. I had an idea that maybe I could win, if things went right.

There was an older guy at the shoot who knew who I was and for whatever reason didn’t think I should have jumped in, built a Dasher and started shooting in the open division. He was a bitter old guy for whatever reason. I didn’t say much and wanted to learn the best I could. Even with him around making rude comments about my rifle, I went about my day.

He shot in FTR and Open, it was allowed at this match.

I shot my first score on the second relay and to my dismay he was scoring me.

When it was all said and done I shot a 199 17x. He was pissed to the point of not saying anything else. Conversation started with the pits and it turns out I had a conventional target rather than the open.

He was suddenly elated, laughing and what not that it was all luck and what not.

So the only thing fair for me to do was reshoot my relay. I had to go home and load more ammo and get back to the range within about an hour. I lived only a few miles from the range so it worked out.

I got back in time, to what I could tell was his dissatisfaction. They put the new target up and I shot 2 sighters and my 20 record shots with the entire group of shooters watching me. Only one guy in the pits.


I shot a 199 14x.

It actually worked in my favor, conditions improved a bit, it clouded over and I could really see the target.

The next day we finished the second and third matches and I ended with a 596 and 30 some “Xs”

I won the match and needless to say the older fellow didn’t say much. In fact to this day he hasn’t hardly talked to me at shoots.

So in a round about way........the mouth can go both ways!

 

[D-4297]

It is no different that the really old guy jack-jawing you at the range that his mosin-nagant is more accurate than anything newer or how the 7 carcano is the cat's meow.

Happy Friday all!

OUCH ! I shoot a custom built M-N in Open for the grins & giggles . Off of a Flex-Pod . .308 Bartlein 30" MTU , 1-10 twist . The rifle has produced 199 - 13 , 198 - 11 , 197 - 9 at the SWN , and I was proud to be it's owner and builder . And to see the look on some peoples faces when they get beat by a rifle using a near 80yr. old action . And I'm a silver-haired old guy , too . But I have no expectations that it is in the same class as todays modern 284 Shehanes , and other calibers . The fact that the rifle's lineage is 130 years old , and still in use the world over has earned it the respect due .

 

[K22]

A different twist on the subject of so called "out of date" cartridges from a hunter's perspective.

I hear it all the time at the range, you should get one of these or one of those -" it's flat out to 500 yards with a BC of .xxx. Really? I merely smile and nod and continue to shoot my "out of date" Rem Model 700, 308 Win which is about as perfect eastern deer cartridge as you could ever want. Incidently, in 50 years of deer hunting I never had a safe shot opportunity over 200 yards in the terrain I hunt.

While I'm at this vent let me add the 257 Roberts, 7mm-08, 260 Rem, 270 Win, 30-06, etc. to the list. Are you getting the drift here? It's the shooter's skill not the cartridge that makes the difference between a successful and unsuccessful hunt. Of course this assumes you're using a remotely appropriate cartridge.

I might at the 243 Win to the above list but too many gun writer's, "experts", have written it off as suitable for deer. However I've used one since the late 60's hunting the eastern PA wood lands and never lost a deer to it that I hit of course. I've had some misses due to me, not the rifle or the cartridge but in those cases it wouldn't have matter if I was shooting a 300 Win Mag - the result would have been the same - no meat for the freezer.

 

[fx77]

There is that which you don't know, and that which you don't know, and you think is so.

 

[snert]

One of my favorite past times is to sit close to a bench occupied by an AR shorty barrel with a red dot at 100 yards. its wonderful when they post a "Splash" target on their backer and use cheap binos to check whether the mag they just shot is "zero'd. I shoot my 22 LR 541T with subsonics next to them and after they do a mag dump on a target, I wait till they are shooting mag number 2 "fire for effect" after they "correct the red dot". i plunk a mag full in the center for them while they blast thru 30. They check the target, declare themselves the best shot to ever shoot their new mega blaster cause they have 5 in the little two inch dot in the center and they pack up and leave. It never ceases to amuse me