Your Ideal AR Tactical Build

[kzin]

Yes, the class "was" intended to draw the average AR15 safe queens onto the range...not to be confused with closet queens for you new-fangled sling shooters.

How do I know? I sent a lengthy letter to the HP Chairman suggesting a new game specifically for that purpose, complete with easy-peasy rules that would be interesting to the vast majority of AR owners (circa 2013). But, he's a colonel that knows far better than anyone else and I am sorry now that I wasted my time. After he butchered the rules and then, refused to listen to reason before the rules were chiseled into stone, I knew the game was dead in the water.

I should have gone to the CMP with the game because at least they have some vision.

So the net effect of what you're saying is the game was NOT intended as a beginner game by the people who actually created it?

 

[Herzo]

As a casual "competitor" I have little interest in scores or my placement on the podium. Yes the few CMP medals that I have earned are satisfying, but I am only in competition with myself (and a few friends). How can I improve my own performance? Yes a capable rifle is necessary, but to "game" the rules takes away from the spirit of the competition.
One of the problems is that the AR-15 is particularly adaptable and to define a "base" class is nearly impossible. I have assembled my rifles each with a specific purpose in mind - that in itself gives me an advantage over the targeted "safe queen". Even there you could have a floated H-Bar competing against an SP-1.
Unfortunately the competition seems to have taken precedence over the learning/enjoyment of this class.

 

[Heman]

Erud is probably going to die of a heart attack here but the beauty of palma is you can't game it, it is a shooting contest. Yeah you can run 185's or 90s in a 223 but it is still about the shooter and not the equipment. Any rifle you can chose a slick cartridge but still is a shooter race because a palma gun can still shoot with an Any rifle if the shooter is good enough and the conditions are descent enough. Service rifle is the same as palma, shooter game. In F-Class that isn't the case. So that is why we (shoot at same club as Petillo) started F-Practical to keep it as a shooter centered not equipment centered version of fclass. They didn't rule F-Class enough. Bob Churchill who was in the original meetings said F-Class was intended to basically be what our F-Practical is. But as stated the NRA butchered the rules because they know better and now it has become as much of an equipment/technology race as a shooter discipline. I say this not knocking the shooting skill of any F-class shooter they shoot some amazing scores and are amazing shooters. I make this comment because as I look at the equipment and their is some really cool stuff on the line, usually the best shooters have the best equipment. As an example just look at T/R started with mag length and Harris style bipods then people realized they didn't have to be mag length and you saw the 185's come out and now the 308 Win mag is born with 200's at close to 2700fps. You started seeing T/R joy pods and now they have their bipods on carpet sitting on a board and their guns track almost like an Open rifle. If someone came out today in F-T/R with mag length 175s or 155s and tried to compete with a Harris bi-pod and rear bag off the ground it doesn't matter how good they are, the better equipment/gun guy of similar but lesser ability will probably win and win most of the time. Sling side not so much one of our club shooters will bring out with regularity his wood stocked Win70 with a Unertl scope chambered in .30-06 and shoot a 599 in a mid range match with high x count and beat a shooter with a tube gun firing 105's at 3,300 fps. Same guy shoots the old .30-338 Mag (or recently 338LM) in a old wood stock gun originally built in the 70s by his dad and shoots it darn nice and usually is one of the guys to beat. Definitely not cutting edge technology. IMHO AR Tactical needs to stay a shooter competition like sling is and our F-Practical. If someone comes out with their tricked out AR to shoot it great, but again that wasn't the intent from my understanding. It was basically supposed to be a .223 cartridge game on the big target. But as usual the NRA dropped the ball on the rules and weren't clear if AR10s were allowed or the sub-calibers. The rules need to be tightened up before to many people spend a lot of money on gaming it and then it is lost. IMHO it should be AR15/10 in .223 or .308, and also allow the M1As that are scoped as the extra 2.5" barrel length advantage is negated by gas system. At our club usually AR-Tac is where our junior shooters (talking 8 and 12 year olds this year) hang out or the new guys come. Myself, Petillo, and Hyslop have shot it before but only once just to try it. If the better shooters show up to shoot it great, but I don't award it very heavily in big matches or at all so that way there isn't an easy award for the top shooters to go get instead of competing where they normally would.

 

[Obvious]

OP here. I have enjoyed all the conversation and enlightenment on the subject of AR Tac. To steer thing slightly back towards the original question and in light of all the new information that I have gained from your postings, I want to slightly rephrase my original question.

What would you build as an AR15 based gun for deer and hogs that would also be legal and competitive in AR Tac? I would definitely be willing to load long for matches, but would also like to be able to load mag length for hunting when i actually use the magazine. The answer to the question would fulfill a need (want) that I have and hopefully not be considered unfairly gaming the system, which is not my goal. I'll take AR10 off the table for now.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

So the net effect of what you're saying is the game was NOT intended as a beginner game by the people who actually created it?

Negative.

"the class "was" intended to draw the average AR15 safe queens onto the range"...i.e......rifles/shooters that would otherwise never shoot a competition at all would have a simple class to compete in that had "parity". Parity means: AR15 in 223/556 that 95% of existing AR platforms are...limitations on optics...mag length ammo so a neophyte could buy factory ammo and be competitive...keep the sport affordable and eliminate the "full race" mentality with very simple rules.

The point was to offer a new game to fit the vast majority of American Sporting Rifles, not tailor it to be gamed by the 5%. NRA HP Committee Brainiacs chose the latter.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

^^^ done as such, he that can read conditions and strategize the wind will win the day.

 

[jrh84]

What would you build as an AR15 based gun for deer and hogs that would also be legal and competitive in AR Tac? I would definitely be willing to load long for matches, but would also like to be able to load mag length for hunting when i actually use the magazine. The answer to the question would fulfill a need (want) that I have and hopefully not be considered unfairly gaming the system, which is not my goal. I'll take AR10 off the table for now.

Yeah, we got a little sidetracked, didn't we?

Sounds like if you're after a dual-purpose setup (target and hunting), a 20" 6.5 Grendel, any of the 6mm wildcats, or new 6 ARC would fit the bill. A .223 is awfully light to be making clean kills on whitetail or a thick-skinned hog.

 

[Andy Legg]

I also like the 6mm-223(aka 6x45mm). I know there are a lot of better rounds out there....but I like how simple the conversion is(Barrel change only) & being able to use cheap brass(I prefer the LC.

 

[memilanuk]

Recently had a similar discussion with a fellow shooter - we're talking about trying to kick-start the MR AR class at our range. I've got a .223, he's got a .308, so naturally there was some smack talkin' involved...

That said... if the 6 ARC lives up to the hype, it should be a good choice if one wanted to 'game' this class - excellent accuracy, with great BC, low recoil... basically a itty-bitty gas-operated 6 BR. Not that hasn't been done before... but not in a package with factory guns and ammo available.

 

[Obvious]

I'm the OP and I'm bringing this back. Would the CMMG Endeavour 300 in 6mm ARC be a decent one? https://cmmginc.com/product/rifle-endeavor-300-mk4-6mm-arc/

The price seems right and it already has a 20 inch barrel.

 

[LVLAaron]

• Aero upper and lower
• Kreiger Service Rifle Barrel (1:7.7) w/ White Oak Precision competition extension (1 thou over size)
• White Oak bolt / bolt carrier group
• Triggertech 2 stage trigger
• Magpul PRS stock
• Vortex Viper PST II Second Focal plane
• Vortex precision cantilever mount
• Giessele handguard
• Harris bipod
• Surefire (I think) flash hider. (totally unnecessary and I hate it (PINGGGGGGG!!!!) but I couldn't find a thread protector I liked)
• Superlative arms adjustable gas block (If you have one of these... work the adjustment screw every few hundred rounds or they seize up)
  
  

 

[LVLAaron]

I'm the OP and I'm bringing this back. Would the CMMG Endeavour 300 in 6mm ARC be a one? https://cmmginc.com/product/rifle-endeavor-300-mk4-6mm-arc/

The price seems right and it already has a 20 inch barrel.

I'll take an 80g 223 bullet going 2900FPS over a 6mm 105 going 2600 any day.

I built the above rifle specifically for this class. I stuck with 223 because It's gods cartridge.

If I were to build a rifle and wanted the absolute best ballistics I could get, I'd build an AR10 in 6.5CM.

 

[Obvious]

I'll take an 80g 223 bullet going 2900FPS over a 6mm 105 going 2600 any day.

I built the above rifle specifically for this class. I stuck with 223 because It's gods cartridge.

If I were to build a rifle and wanted the absolute best ballistics I could get, I'd build an AR10 in 6.5CM.

Wow. It seems that you have built quite a competitive setup. It would make a good blueprint to follow.
The main reason I was leaning toward larger than 223 was to be able to also deer and hog hunt.

What kind of life are you getting out of your brass at 2900fps with 80s? That's basically the same velocity as is common in a regular FTR bolt gun with 80s.

 

[LVLAaron]

Wow. It seems that you have built quite a competitive setup. It would make a good blueprint to follow.
The main reason I was leaning toward larger than 223 was to be able to also deer and hog hunt.

What kind of life are you getting out of your brass at 2900fps with 80s? That's basically the same velocity as is common in a regular FTR bolt gun with 80s.

Brass: 1 firing in this gun with this load. 90 percent of the brass is safe for a second firing, but I'd only use them in a moderate load for a different gun.

 

[memilanuk]

Wow... I 'remember' when 2700-2750 from an S80MK or B80VLD was the norm from a 20" Service Rifle barrel - assuming you intended to reload the cases, that is.

Reminds me of one gal who recommended a H4895 load that was a *lot* hotter than what "everyone else" was running... almost like the digits were transposed (25.3 instead of 23.5). Turns out, she had an opening milled in the bottom of the receiver, so the blown primers could just fall thru rather than hang up under the trigger... and she thought wearing eye-pro was silly

 

[LVLAaron]

2750 is about as fast as I could get things going with Varget. I switched to AR-Comp and had much better luck with velocity and accuracy.

 

[memilanuk]

Yeah... I'm all out of Varget. Lots of 8208XBR / N140 / N150 / 2000MR though, plus an odd pound of CFE223 and AR Comp floating around as well. Plenty of options

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

It could depend where you want to use your tactical rifle for deer hunting, currently 34 states allow a 22 caliber for deer.

 

[Obvious]

It could depend where you want to use your tactical rifle for deer hunting, currently 34 states allow a 22 caliber for deer.

Edited. It looks like I could use 223 where I hunt, but I'm not all that excited about mag length 80s for deer. I supposed I could be convinced otherwise.

 

[RegionRat]

I can never tell if this is obvious, so no offense intended if you already know...
In 223 (AR15), an 80 isn’t typically going to be loaded at mag length.

Bullets near 80 or 90 , are certainly popular in 223 for the MR or 600 yard line, but typically loaded longer and single fed for an AR platform. There are however, bullets in the 60 to under 80 range that are meant for hunting deer or pigs and will do well at mag length.

The White Oak web site might be a useful place to explore if you want to see typical offerings in Service Rifle, Match Guns, Space Guns, and Varmint Hunting uppers all in one place, from an outfit that has a solid reputation in the AR15 platform.