Your Ideal AR Tactical Build
- Thread starter Obvious
- Start date
Personally, I am unwilling to give up 300+ fps just to use those cartridges. Use the 6XC at mag length for the AR10 platform. Move up and find an accuracy node then go shoot!
If you already shoot FTR, why do you even want to do this? You are basically planning to build a rifle specifically to shoot in a class that was developed to get brand new shooters to try their hand at competition using whatever AR they already own. Just remember that you will be shooting on the 2 MOA 10-ring target used by sling shooters. That target gets cleaned pretty regularly by sling shooters, often using iron sights. Shooting off a bipod with a scope ,you should be able to clean it with almost any decent factory AR with decent ammo. So when you use your purpose-built ringer rifle to beat the guy who showed up to his first match with a $599 AR and $149 red dot, does it really matter?
At the same time, you will be illustrating to that new shooter that he can’t be competitive in the entry-level class either, unless he wants to spend serious cash to keep up with the gamers.
At the same time, you will be illustrating to that new shooter that he can’t be competitive in the entry-level class either, unless he wants to spend serious cash to keep up with the gamers.
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http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-upper-receivers.html
Just ordered Aero Precision M4E1 lower, VLTOR upper with shilen select match barrel and 223 Remington caliber.
Nice guys to deal
Just ordered Aero Precision M4E1 lower, VLTOR upper with shilen select match barrel and 223 Remington caliber.
Nice guys to deal
As a club match director, I would recommend you build or buy a .223 AR. Put a While Oak extended rail or equivalent on it, https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/extended-scope-rail-10-min-elev-1827.html Mount a scope with quick detach rings (I like Warne), attach a bipod, load some ammo with 75ish grain bullets and bring your friends, kids, girl friend to your local match. The long rail and quick detach rings will let you quickly adjust the rifle for a new shooter. You've got F class to shoot. The beauty of AR tactical is its low cost and big target. We had a match yesterday, a fellow brought his girlfriend for her first time shooting. By the end of the match, she said she needed to get her own rifle and she walked away with our club's coveted "First Shot an X" pin because she shot an X with her first sighter on her third string. That's what this class is for.
flintcreek6412
Bob Petillo
From what I've seen the Any and Palma rifles clean sometimes but rarely does a service rifle clean. At least from what I've seen at our club and a few national results I've looked up.
I also shoot FTR but this year I've shot AR Tac for fun and I've also shot a new class our club created called F-Practical. Why should guys that show up with a 6.5 CM on a bipod compete against $7000 guns? We gave them their own class with own awards and it's gaining some interest. It's fun to change it up and I don't like burning up my good FTR barrels on club shoots. It's good to be reminded of what shooting was like 20 years ago without lugging 50# of gear between yard lines. The more I see RAD systems, tuners and ever changing bipods in FTR the more I begin to lose interest.
And the 4.5# trigger in AR Tac sucks big time compared to my FTR gun but it's part of the challenge. No way I"m gonna dump $2K building a nice AR to be stuck with a 4.5# trigger.....LOL.
To me, it's simply about having fun shooting.
I don’t think I mentioned anything about Service rifles vs Palma and Any, my point is that AR tactical is shot on the sling target. If people can shoot a 200 on that target from a sling, an experienced shooter doing it With a purpose-built rifle from a bipod is not much of an accomplishment. A brand new shooter doing it with the AR he already had in his closet would be a different story.
At any rate, 600 gets cleaned a heck of a lot more by SR’s since scopes were allowed than it did before. It’s not the rare event it used to be.
At any rate, 600 gets cleaned a heck of a lot more by SR’s since scopes were allowed than it did before. It’s not the rare event it used to be.
Just about any decent 20" .223 Wylde Barrel with a 77 grain SMK loaded to mag length(2.260" COAL) should be plenty good to get started with. My 16 year old got started with a 5.56 Wilson 16" Bull Barrel.....he does have to work harder in the wind. It still runs >1400fps at 600 yards(easily meets velocity requirements for the E-Targets). He made High Master with it in about a year.
Get a 223 REM and call it a day. take your bolt action for deer hunting, but a 223 AR tactical with the right bullet would also do just fine. The 223 REM is an amazing cartridge out to 800 yards with 80-90 grain bullets. You don't need to over-think it....but feel free to do so.
I want to do it because I want to build a fairly accurate AR and try something different, just like the several other people at the club that have done the same. Hopefully the NRA will clarify the rules. If the intent is to have a cheap 223 Rem class by itself for beginners, then another class for everything else, then I'm most likely going to be in the everything else class. I'm happy enough with my performance in FTR, so it's not like I want or need to be the ringer against the beginners.
I mainly want to do it because I'd like to get into shooting a different cartridge/gun, but I don't want the expense of building a competitive F-open gun and kit. AR Tac appeals to me more than sling/service/etc. The experienced guys at the club that have gotten into AR Tac seem to be having fun with it and I want to join in. I'm just trying to get info to make the right decision on building the right gun.
I think it is somewhat assumed that someone wouldn't be so petty as enjoy being the strongest kindergartner as an adult. If you want to build a 6mm AR10 and mop up the AR Tac division, it's perfectly within the rules. There's nothing to keep you from spending the money to be "king of the hill" on the kids' playground.
I think it would have helped if they limited the class to AR15s specifically, and if AR10s are allowed, only in 308. A 6mm-7mm AR10 shooting 2 MOA 10 rings is a substantial advantage compared to a 223 gun. The intent per the rules was "service rifle with a bipod and a squeeze bag (and up to 15x optic). But an AR10 slung isn't a huge advantage in midrange as a .308. And service rifle has no legal calibers 6mm-7mm.
You go to a bipod and allow 6mm-7mm calibers and it absolutely ceases to be anything like "service rifle with a bipod." This assures the gamers a chance to mop up. Even at a 2.8" OAL limit
After shooting AR Tac for a year as the very definition of "new shooter" the class was intended for, I'd propose the following rule "fixes" for AR Tac to keep it even keel with new shooters:
1) Ditch the 4.5# trigger limit as many aftermarket ARs people are bringing will have triggers lighter than this. Having a rule that's never enforced is worse than no rule at all.
2) Allow only 5.56 and .308 guns just like service rifle. If you want to add other AR15 calibers, fine, but large frame guns would be limited to .308. There are very few "new" shooters that would be excluded, as almost nobody buys a Grendel or 6.8spc as a first AR. So limiting it even to just 5.56 isn't really exclusionary. By the same logic, one could exclude AR10s categorically, because again, very few people have a large frame AR as a first and only AR.
3) REQUIRE MAG LENGTH AMMO, BUT DISALLOW MAG FEEDING. This is an anti-gamer measure to limit the advantage a handloader would have over someone limited to factory ammo. It also means you can ditch the 4.5# trigger and gain the safety advantage of single feeding without the concern of lighter trigger weights. Mag length can score reasonably well. My first relay ever in midrange was a 200-14x at 300y with with 73 ELDs at mag length (good load plus beginner's luck and favorable wind conditions). So this isn't a huge handicap for the experienced people while helping out the new shooters.
If you look at AR Tac scores nationally, you're seeing very, very few 20x performances (if any), never mind a 600-60x. So I don't think it's the case that sling faces are too easy. The cartridge length limit and barrel length limit really help to assure that. (and a 15x optic helps too).
If the gamers come in and exploit the loopholes in AR Tac (as it seems must inevitably happen), the sling faces might indeed be too easy. But we're not there just yet.
Why do so many people state as fact that Tactical is 'meant' to be a beginner class?
Where is there any official writing stating that?
Tactical/practical vs match oriented arms race ala f-open, sure. That's different than beginner vs serious competition to the limit of the actual rules.
It's not like 'Service Rifles' and equipment haven't been gamed to the point where they're only superficially similar to service rifles and field equipment.
Where is there any official writing stating that?
Tactical/practical vs match oriented arms race ala f-open, sure. That's different than beginner vs serious competition to the limit of the actual rules.
It's not like 'Service Rifles' and equipment haven't been gamed to the point where they're only superficially similar to service rifles and field equipment.
It is stated as fact because it’s a fact. The intent was to draw shooters to the sport who wouldn’t normally compete by offering a class where they could (more or less) shoot what they had. There was quite a lot of discussion on this when it was first proposed and rolled out, you may not have been around at that time.
What you say is fine as far as it goes.
There is still a difference between drawing new shooters and being a beginner oriented class forever.
Somebody pulls the AR they happen to have out of the safe and shoots Tactical for a season or two and is hooked.
We're all happy about that.
Then what?
Are they morally obligated to move to a 'serious' class(F or Prone or XTC) that is quite different from what they're enjoying?
Or is Tactical a full discipline that it is perfectly OK to take very seriously on it's own merits.
The recent rules changes with promoting from provisional and clarifying that Tactical is a 3rd discipline with 2 different classes seem to strongly support it being taken seriously in itself.
The way some people talk, just shooting Tactical for years and getting really good at it would be unethical beating up of beginners. Or there is something wrong with the guy we have who was distinguished with SR, had enough of that and is now dominating our Tactical class with cleans and 70% x-count.
When(if?) we get Regional and National Championships in Tactical the question will answer itself. Enough people will 'game' it in every way they can think of that an optimal rifle setup will be as expected as it is in F or Prone
In my opinion, yes.
In my opinion, no.
In my opinion, that was a bad decision. The NRA lost sight of their original objective with this class.
Yes, I am one of those people.
In my opinion, yes there is. Once again, we are back to where there is no discipline where a new shooter can show up with the gear he has and be somewhat competitive. Being somewhat competitive is fun for new shooters, and gives them hope that they can become actually good. In theory, the hope of being good compels new shooters to want to do it more. That was the original intent of AR Tactical. The new guy showing up and shooting 180's to 190's while other guys are shooting 200's with 70% x-count using expensive, purpose-built rifles is not encouraging.
Agreed. Some people will game anything. Some enjoy winning more than they enjoy competing, even if the winning is meaningless. I don't really care about AR Tactical. I don't know if it has done any good to bring new shooters in or not, as there really isn't anyone in my area doing it. If someone I knew wanted to try competitive shooting and already had an AR, I'd bring them to midrange match and get them set up in that class to have a good time. If they showed signs of enjoying it, I'd bring them to more matches. After 3 or 4 of those matches, I'd suggest "Hey you're doing pretty good with the bipod, why don't you try on my spare coat and see what you think of this palma rifle?"
Even if it is the case initially this factor can go away very quickly, though.
As soon as the second guy 'games' it they're shooting against each other on equal terms.
Then it's just another full discipline with somewhat different equipment.
What I would like to see is the 223 sub-class become more clearly an inexpensive entry point
and open-tactical become more clearly no-holds-barred serious competition.
Theoretically we have the classification system to let different levels compete with each other. Unfortunately we seldom have enough shooters to make it meaningful.
flintcreek6412
Bob Petillo
Where there is competition it's going to be gamed. That's the nature of competition.
I was an FTR rookie 3 years ago. Showed up with my stock Rem 700 Varmint in .308. It was shooting .25MOA 3 shot groups at 100 with handloads. I was pretty cocky yet nervous going in.
Got my ass handed to me in my first match, then 2nd, then 3rd. There is simply no stock barrel that can compete over 20 shots in 90 degree heat to a 30" Heavy Varmint Kreiger, Bartlein, Brux or whatever. I had a choice to make.....either shoot for fun and have personal competition between between the SS/EX classes or invest in equipment. I invested in a self built action/barrel/trigger/stock combo. I did much much better. But then I had to have a better bipod.....then I needed better load development which involved annealing($1000), measuring powder to single kernel($700), measuring seating depth pressure $$...blah blah blah. Then add in the 200.20x bullets and I'm shooting what I call a .308 Magnum in essence. And now RAD and tuners are in vogue and that's kinda where I draw the line I guess. Where does this crap end. And F-Open is simply an embarrassment to how f class even started.....old sling shooter slapping on optics and a rest to compete....
So now I want to have fun and not act like a mad scientist reloading. Dump some powder in cases that were completely size in one step....what? One step that normally takes me at least 4.
So am I somehow morally obligated to stay in FTR or move to Fopen? WTF? If I want to have fun and just shoot in AR Tac I will. If I win....so be it.....Or I might just find out my wind reading really sucks and those 200.20x bullets with freight train BC were compensating for lack of ability. Or maybe my 8 ounce trigger got rid of a normally crappy trigger finger that becomes pronounced at 4.5#. Heck, even my 15-60x scope makes it easy to dial in the X ring and a max 15x might give me fits.
If a beginner needs to win to have fun they are in the wrong sport. There is a simple choice....quit or work hard at getting better. Sadly f class does take money to get to the top. You can do it on a budget but it's still expensive.
I do agree with HOHN a bunch though. I am very glad they split .223 from the rest. But even then there will be issues. A guy can buy an Hbar with custom barrel, trigger, bolt, atlas bipod and NF optic etc only because it was recommended by a buddy and costs enough money to brag about and he'll be shooting against some guy with a 16" carbine and collapsible stock on a bedroll with a $49 bushnell. Both brand new shooters yet equipment will always be the achilles heal.
It's again the nature of anything competitive. I go to have fun. Pure and simple. There will be loopholes that get exploited. Until it's decided that everyone is shooting identical rifle specs and bullet specs there is no way around it. But that doesn't sell equipment that manufacturers promote and develop every day tempting those that want a slight edge. Golf, archery, etc are no different. I see it all the time.
Yes, AR Tac was intended to be an intro to get people involved. But it's not pushed or publicized by the fclass elite. It was a failed idea from the beginning IMO. 20 shot string of fire at a known distance target is simply boring for most AR type guys they are trying to get into the sport. So if an experienced shooter want to compete in AR Tac so be it. I'm an experienced golfer but I don't see courses telling me to hit the road. But then again, golf is smart enough to implement a handicap system to level the field. In shooting sports it's winner take all. That is the single greatest hindrance to getting new people involved. Even with a classification system they start as master and unless it's a huge event most classes get tossed together.
Ok, my rant is over. Sorry OP for this getting so far off track.
I was an FTR rookie 3 years ago. Showed up with my stock Rem 700 Varmint in .308. It was shooting .25MOA 3 shot groups at 100 with handloads. I was pretty cocky yet nervous going in.
Got my ass handed to me in my first match, then 2nd, then 3rd. There is simply no stock barrel that can compete over 20 shots in 90 degree heat to a 30" Heavy Varmint Kreiger, Bartlein, Brux or whatever. I had a choice to make.....either shoot for fun and have personal competition between between the SS/EX classes or invest in equipment. I invested in a self built action/barrel/trigger/stock combo. I did much much better. But then I had to have a better bipod.....then I needed better load development which involved annealing($1000), measuring powder to single kernel($700), measuring seating depth pressure $$...blah blah blah. Then add in the 200.20x bullets and I'm shooting what I call a .308 Magnum in essence. And now RAD and tuners are in vogue and that's kinda where I draw the line I guess. Where does this crap end. And F-Open is simply an embarrassment to how f class even started.....old sling shooter slapping on optics and a rest to compete....
So now I want to have fun and not act like a mad scientist reloading. Dump some powder in cases that were completely size in one step....what? One step that normally takes me at least 4.
So am I somehow morally obligated to stay in FTR or move to Fopen? WTF? If I want to have fun and just shoot in AR Tac I will. If I win....so be it.....Or I might just find out my wind reading really sucks and those 200.20x bullets with freight train BC were compensating for lack of ability. Or maybe my 8 ounce trigger got rid of a normally crappy trigger finger that becomes pronounced at 4.5#. Heck, even my 15-60x scope makes it easy to dial in the X ring and a max 15x might give me fits.
If a beginner needs to win to have fun they are in the wrong sport. There is a simple choice....quit or work hard at getting better. Sadly f class does take money to get to the top. You can do it on a budget but it's still expensive.
I do agree with HOHN a bunch though. I am very glad they split .223 from the rest. But even then there will be issues. A guy can buy an Hbar with custom barrel, trigger, bolt, atlas bipod and NF optic etc only because it was recommended by a buddy and costs enough money to brag about and he'll be shooting against some guy with a 16" carbine and collapsible stock on a bedroll with a $49 bushnell. Both brand new shooters yet equipment will always be the achilles heal.
It's again the nature of anything competitive. I go to have fun. Pure and simple. There will be loopholes that get exploited. Until it's decided that everyone is shooting identical rifle specs and bullet specs there is no way around it. But that doesn't sell equipment that manufacturers promote and develop every day tempting those that want a slight edge. Golf, archery, etc are no different. I see it all the time.
Yes, AR Tac was intended to be an intro to get people involved. But it's not pushed or publicized by the fclass elite. It was a failed idea from the beginning IMO. 20 shot string of fire at a known distance target is simply boring for most AR type guys they are trying to get into the sport. So if an experienced shooter want to compete in AR Tac so be it. I'm an experienced golfer but I don't see courses telling me to hit the road. But then again, golf is smart enough to implement a handicap system to level the field. In shooting sports it's winner take all. That is the single greatest hindrance to getting new people involved. Even with a classification system they start as master and unless it's a huge event most classes get tossed together.
Ok, my rant is over. Sorry OP for this getting so far off track.
AR Tactical doesn't make any sense at all as anything BUT an entry level class. You could already shoot any rifle that fits in the AR Tactical class from a bipod in a regular F-class match, couldn't you? If you just want to have fun, why would that be any less fun? Why would you prefer to shoot in the AR Tactical class as opposed to FTR or F-Open? Help me understand.
flintcreek6412
Bob Petillo
I could. But I think you should shoot in the category to match your equipment. Primarily for 2 reasons. First, it gives us a realistic idea of where our competitor interest lies. Second, in bigger club shoots awards are based upon number of participants. Just like the reason we created a F-Practical class. It's silly for them to compete against F-open guys.
For our MR regional this year we had 17 Fopen shooters and 10 F Practical. In the past it would have been 27 Open guys plus 13 TR guys for 40 competitors in Fclass. In essence F practical did away with 1 DR step that is usually reserved for the top open shooters who are really competing against 17 shooters but on paper it looks like 40. Now it's just 30 since TR is lumped in with open for steps. I don't agree with giving steps if you finish in the top 25% because that's how the numbers work. It should be top 10% period but that's not my call.
But bigger than that.....our payouts are based upon participation in a class. F open would have received 67.5% of the purse and FTR gets 32.5%. Now F-open got 42.5%, FTR 32.5% and F Prac 25%. So the group that in effect was able to get zero prize money because they were donating to F open now gets 25% of the money. That's why you should shoot in the class to match your rifle.
Yes, the class "was" intended to draw the average AR15 safe queens onto the range...not to be confused with closet queens for you new-fangled sling shooters.
How do I know? I sent a lengthy letter to the HP Chairman suggesting a new game specifically for that purpose, complete with easy-peasy rules that would be interesting to the vast majority of AR owners (circa 2013). But, he's a colonel that knows far better than anyone else and I am sorry now that I wasted my time. After he butchered the rules and then, refused to listen to reason before the rules were chiseled into stone, I knew the game was dead in the water.
I should have gone to the CMP with the game because at least they have some vision.
How do I know? I sent a lengthy letter to the HP Chairman suggesting a new game specifically for that purpose, complete with easy-peasy rules that would be interesting to the vast majority of AR owners (circa 2013). But, he's a colonel that knows far better than anyone else and I am sorry now that I wasted my time. After he butchered the rules and then, refused to listen to reason before the rules were chiseled into stone, I knew the game was dead in the water.
I should have gone to the CMP with the game because at least they have some vision.
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