My BSWN 2019 Lessons

[1shot]

I don't agree. A newbie can learn a lot from watching and talking to an experience shooter in the pits if he/she is willing to learn to be better. I did. Pulling targets is where a newbie can affect the score of a shooter for the worse.

I totally agree with you there, I was referring to shooters on the line either shooting or scoring. There is a place and time to school new shooters, national matches with plenty at stake is not that time.

Lloyd

 

[243Mendoza]

I've seen National level High Masters give abysmal pit service so being an experienced competitor is no guarantee of acceptable pit service. What you need is a pit boss that is up to the task of keeping an eye on pit service and solving the problems coming through the radio from the firing line. The pit boss can give a short 5 min demo/lecture of what is required for pulling targets/replacing centers etc for each relay in the pits.

 

[Twdmar]

The nra national championships have devolved into what seems like they only want the high masters. There were a handful of sharpshooters and marksman last summer at atterbury and only 2 juniors in the Whistler boy match. I think there were less than 150 competitors in the long range and about that many across the course. Those matches used to bring over a thousand competitors.
In 10 yrs if those matches even exist, I'd be surprised. Make a match invitation only and you might kill it in the long run.

 

[Warren Dean]

Make a match invitation only and you might kill it in the long run.

Nope. Make it an invitational and you will attract the cream of the crop, not the wannabes. A national level match is no time for training non-proficient shooters. They should be ready for that level or they should practice harder to achieve the appropriate level to be included. Just because I would like to be an Olympic Biathlon competitor doesn't mean that I have some sort of "right" to be there. The position is earned. And unfortunately, I am too old to do that stuff.
Just because you want to does NOT mean you are qualified to.

 

[MattPeetz]

The nra national championships have devolved into what seems like they only want the high masters. There were a handful of sharpshooters and marksman last summer at atterbury and only 2 juniors in the Whistler boy match. I think there were less than 150 competitors in the long range and about that many across the course. Those matches used to bring over a thousand competitors.
In 10 yrs if those matches even exist, I'd be surprised. Make a match invitation only and you might kill it in the long run.

The dwindling numbers in that sport is not because of the so called exclusions. Those numbers are down all across the country in that disipline. They are crossing over to f class and prs.

 

[BIG D]

Nope. Make it an invitational and you will attract the cream of the crop, not the wannabes. A national level match is no time for training non-proficient shooters. They should be ready for that level or they should practice harder to achieve the appropriate level to be included. Just because I would like to be an Olympic Biathlon competitor doesn't mean that I have some sort of "right" to be there. The position is earned. And unfortunately, I am too old to do that stuff.
Just because you want to does NOT mean you are qualified to.

Otherwise known as the clash of the titans!

 

[BIG D]

I’ve been shooting f class for almost 10 years now if my memory is correct. Up until 2016 when nationals was held in Lodi (home state of Wisconsin) I’ve only shot club level events around Wisconsin. I didn’t want to go into the Big league unprepared. My main reason for that was because I knew how much I have invested to get to the level of shooter that I was or am at that time. And knowing shooters at the top level in f open, ftr and sling that these people mean business at an event of this level. This isn’t just a vacation with a shooting match involved. This is a level of competition that people prepare all year for. Some stash the hummer barrels. That above normal lot of bullets. Some have multiple guns and when they find that hammer it gets parked for things like nationals, worlds, and BSWN. I’m not at the top of my game or able to hang with the best. But I show up prepared not to drag the top level shooters down. I started the long range leg this year really well after the Palma day. I slowly slid down the rope as the top level guys and gals passed me up. I do know one thing for sure. There is no better feeling than putting your heart, soul, blood sweat and tears into this game than laying on the line alongside people such as Danny Biggs, Jim Murphy, John Meyers, Shiraz Balolia, Christine Harris, Bob Sebold, Eric Cortina, and the list goes on. That is why I personally waited to get involved in the national level events. I don’t want to be part of the reason these titans loose by an X or 1 point. I don’t ever want to cause issues for other fellow competitors. I got boogered up by a fellow at nationals in Raton. They called infiltrated squading due to rain. My competitor got up and decided to have a picnic or something. While I waited for his return the line officer ordered me to get my equipment on the ready. I did as they ordered. My mistake. Thankfully after yelling for my score keeper Amanda McLeod offered to keep score. I blew one shot out the top on that match due to moisture. Had the other person been there I may have had a better outcome. We as shooters have 3 duties. 1 shoot to the best of your abilities on your assigned target.
2 score for the other shooters on your target. And 3 is pulling targets as fast and as accurate and possible. If you can’t do that stay home until you feel confident you can. Get efficient at club level matches. If you are unsure ask at the club level matches. You will find more help than needed. These big events are not the time or the place to be in training or learning.

 

[Joe Wade]

To the OP
I had the same experience at 2015 Nationals, had 5 cross-fires on my target. The offending shooter was still in sighters, so not motivated to stop until going for record. The scorer is also to blame, for not caring enough to know his own target number. Took about five minutes off my time. You need to have these experiences to make you better. Also helps to learn the rules better. You won't forget a certain rule once you have experienced something first hand. I notified the RSO and told him I may want 5 additional minutes at the end of my string, calmed myself down and began shooting, simple as that. This sport is 50% mindset, 20% experience, 20% load development, 10% equipment.

Pit service at national matches
Don't put all the blame on new shooters. It's mostly about personal integrity. I do my best to give the pit service I would like to have, fast and accurate. I have witnessed experienced shooters give intentionally slow pit service. Seems to be more prevalent during team matches. Why, just a basic lack of integrity. You have to rise above this type of behavior and do the right thing.

Lets try and keep this a positive and fun sport.

 

[mdbruce]

So what did Capstone and Desert Sharpshooters say when you all proposed ideas on how to improve their match?

 

[Jdne5b]

So what did Capstone say when you all proposed ideas on how to improve their match?

It's not their match. It is Desert Sharpshooters match. Some years Berger is the title sponsor. Im not sure they were this year?

 

[Cochran]

So what did Capstone and Desert Sharpshooters say when you all proposed ideas on how to improve their match?

The match needs no improvement. It’s the best run match in the country. The match directors can’t help it if some jackass can’t or won’t give good pit service. At best they can inforce the 20 second rule or whatever it is. In reality if two people can’t get a target up and down in about 5 seconds they should take up golf.

Complain enough about a match and it could go away. That’s not good for any of us.
Complain about a jackass at a match and hopefully he/she will go away. That’s good for all of us.

 

[ShootDots]

The match needs no improvement. It’s the best run match in the country. The match directors can’t help it if some jackass can’t or won’t give good pit service. At best they can inforce the 20 second rule or whatever it is. In reality if two people can’t get a target up and down in about 5 seconds they should take up golf.

Complain enough about a match and it could go away. That’s not good for any of us.
Complain about a jackass at a match and hopefully he/she will go away. That’s good for all of us.

Nobody is saying that the match isn't run like a well oiled Swiss watch! The logistics of coordinating and moving nearly 400 shooters is daunting! These folks handle it very well. However, there is nothing that can not be improved upon. There is room here for healthy discussions and to float ideas that may very well help. Nobody is bashing the fine people who run this event. People care enough about this event to offer viable options that could make it a better match, that's all..

 

[Rope2horns]

My shooting may suck but my pit service never will...a competitor should take as much pride in the pit service they provide as they do with their shooting/reloading....if you feel you are above giving good (or don't know how) pit service then you are part of the problem..I don't care what you've won or how long you have been in the sport....back to my corner.

 

[ShootDots]

My shooting may suck but my pit service never will...a competitor should take as much pride in the pit service they provide as they do with their shooting/reloading....if you feel you are above giving good (or don't know how) pit service then you are part of the problem..I don't care what you've won or how long you have been in the sport....back to my corner.

Well Norm, if your shooting sucks, I need to learn how to shoot that bad>>>my scores would S-O-A-R!!

 

[jkl]

Warren,
Here is your chance to step up!
I remember standing at the top of the ramp at the 1000 yard line in the early days of the match with Eric Stecker and Mid. There were maybe 30 targets in the air and the conversation went like this. "It sure would be great to see all 100 of the targets in the air some day on this range again, Mid responded it may happen one day."

Guess what it did and it took several years. It is one of the highlights, seeing the morning sun on that line of target frames. Now we have a match that everyone wants to shoot and it takes 16 minutes to sell 360 spots and put 150 shooters on the wait list.

Warren, you can do it to get started just like Matt, Michell, Mid, Nancy and the group of Desert Sharpshooters that helped. Now start the Warren Dean Invitational Cup. It will start small and in a few years you will have 360 shooters fighting at regional and top local matches hoping to get an invitation for the Warren Dean Cup.

I know for a fact that Matt and Michell will send you there notes on how to get started and you will be off to the races.

All joking aside, I know how everyone wants to improve something from the toilet paper to providing nicer logo pens and free massages in the pits. But by this time everyone that worked so hard to pull off the SWN, one of the best rifle matches. Then the Creedmoor Cup (the first time it was fired in the US in over 100 years) one day later are a little tired and beat up.

Now Matt is overseeing Winter Range, 800 shooters and then the Cactus Classic Benchrest Match now throw in the Washington's Birthday Match. I did hear rumor that Michell offer to help Matt with some stuff. So they still are helping run the top matches in other shooting sports at Ben Avery. Don't beat them down or we may be looking and hoping to find someone to run a match that was the best long range match that was shot at Ben Avery.

Just joking Warren!! But the name sounds like a possibility. I think we should start with a Solo Cup.

John

 

[jkl]

Thanks to all that helped, Alan Rosenthal for allowing us to make a mess at his shop building 75 target frames. We didn't quite meet up to his fine furniture standards and none of us received a job offer even in a tight labor market. Scott for doing his best to keep us in line in the pits. Block offices that gave up target pulling so we could yell MARK anything please. Mid, Nancy, Michell, Matt and everyone in the building hiding behind that locked door. Even Dan Bramley and I helped by handling the complaint department one afternoon. I had far fewer complaints than Dan, he was running the F class complaints, I had everyone else. So an end to another great match and hope that by next year the cuts and bruises are healed up, and they will forget all of the problems and complaints of SWN 2019. Hit SEND and will put out the registration date for 2020 SWN to start the craziness again.

Thanks to all and see you in 2020 as long as I get an invite.

John

 

[Bob Sebold]

I don't really think Warren or any one else was bashing how the people put on the match. It is the best match out there, that's why everyone wants to shoot it. I didn't know until about 5 days before I left that I had a spot to shoot. Other obligations meant I had to be there for the very first day before the match started until after the match ended. I decided to bring a gun and ammo and beg in needed. I think they could raise match fees to a high level and maybe get paid pullers so that time is saved for pit changes. Hell, I don't care what they charge, I will try to shoot it. That woulf rule out a lot of the non committed shooters.

I would also like to ask Warren to please consider me for the Warren Dean Invitational Cup. I would be honored to be the first one signed up!

 

[jkl]

I agree as long as Warren will let me caddie. I know Warren wasn’t bashing the SWN. But nothing is perfect and I have seen the effort everyone has put into SWN and it’s pretty close.

John

 

[Warren Dean]

Warren,
Here is your chance to step up!
I remember standing at the top of the ramp at the 1000 yard line in the early days of the match with Eric Stecker and Mid. There were maybe 30 targets in the air and the conversation went like this. "It sure would be great to see all 100 of the targets in the air some day on this range again, Mid responded it may happen one day."

Guess what it did and it took several years. It is one of the highlights, seeing the morning sun on that line of target frames. Now we have a match that everyone wants to shoot and it takes 16 minutes to sell 360 spots and put 150 shooters on the wait list.

Warren, you can do it to get started just like Matt, Michell, Mid, Nancy and the group of Desert Sharpshooters that helped. Now start the Warren Dean Invitational Cup. It will start small and in a few years you will have 360 shooters fighting at regional and top local matches hoping to get an invitation for the Warren Dean Cup.

I know for a fact that Matt and Michell will send you there notes on how to get started and you will be off to the races.

All joking aside, I know how everyone wants to improve something from the toilet paper to providing nicer logo pens and free massages in the pits. But by this time everyone that worked so hard to pull off the SWN, one of the best rifle matches. Then the Creedmoor Cup (the first time it was fired in the US in over 100 years) one day later are a little tired and beat up.

Now Matt is overseeing Winter Range, 800 shooters and then the Cactus Classic Benchrest Match now throw in the Washington's Birthday Match. I did hear rumor that Michell offer to help Matt with some stuff. So they still are helping run the top matches in other shooting sports at Ben Avery. Don't beat them down or we may be looking and hoping to find someone to run a match that was the best long range match that was shot at Ben Avery.

Just joking Warren!! But the name sounds like a possibility. I think we should start with a Solo Cup.

John

John, funny stuff. Sounds like you been into a Solo Cup today, pal.

That said, my post really had little to do with pit service, although that is a factor. It was about the overall problem with inexperienced newbies and how they impact the results of other shooters. Somehow the thread got hijacked into this whole pit service thing and the original point was lost in the fussing. Anyway, you sling folks don't have to deal with our kind of newbies because your discipline takes many moons to even achieve scoring all your shots in a Palma. As I see it, sling shooters are cut from a different cloth....which explains a lot about you... See you on the line, buddy.

 

[Warren Dean]

I don't really think Warren or any one else was bashing how the people put on the match. It is the best match out there, that's why everyone wants to shoot it. I didn't know until about 5 days before I left that I had a spot to shoot. Other obligations meant I had to be there for the very first day before the match started until after the match ended. I decided to bring a gun and ammo and beg in needed. I think they could raise match fees to a high level and maybe get paid pullers so that time is saved for pit changes. Hell, I don't care what they charge, I will try to shoot it. That woulf rule out a lot of the non committed shooters.

I would also like to ask Warren to please consider me for the Warren Dean Invitational Cup. I would be honored to be the first one signed up!

You got it Bob...first come first served...LOL I don't need to add anything about how well the match was run. There isn't another match that runs as well except maybe the FCNC when it was held at Avery.