My BSWN 2019 Lessons

[Jdne5b]

From my experience, I would not be the better shooter I am today if the BSWN was invitation only. In 2017, I was a Marksman. I had no real mentor in ftr at my club. I went to the BSWN and was able to spend 35 educational minutes Al Barnhart about my set up and position. Later that week I had a scope that was lent to me after mine broke. At 1,000 yards, bore sighting, Ian Klemm cranking on the turret and Brian litz giving us the come up I hit the target first shot. Besides that I had so many conversations and got so many wind tips I got better instantly.

Since then I have been very fortunate to have friendships from that match. And I have learned so much. I never would have gained so much without that one match in 2017.

Without new shooters in the pipeline and learning from the best I fear there would be a lot of lost info. I don't think there is any perfect one way to look/run at a match like the BSWN. But as I understand it, it's a pro/am and it's serving it's purpose.

Another consideration is the classification. I know a few good ftr shooters from nevada, idaho, wyoming that are not as high as experts but also shoot at some nasty ranges. A higher class may not accurately assess the quality and knowledge of the shooter.

This is just another point of view. Not right or wrong I hope. Just my first hand experience.

But you had a classification and sounds like you had shot matches before. Perfect. I doubt you were the type of shooter Warren is talking about.

In my last 3 years there.... There are multiple people showing up to SWN as complete new shooters, who've never shot a Fclass match, dont know the rules, dont know how to pull targets. Is this match the best place to learn those things?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Hello Matt! You seem to be making an excellent case for SHOT MARKER electronic targets.. These would reduce much of this less than desirable trait(s) associated with a brand new shooter..

Uh, no. That is not the case that is being made. The case that is being made is that it is not unreasonable to expect that a certain minimum level of experience and expertise, both in shooting and pulling targets, should be a requirement to participate in one of the biggest F-Classes matches in the U.S. Please don't turn this into another e-target thread. If you want to start a conversation about e-targets, please create your own separate thread.

 

[243Mendoza]

Squad the new inexperienced shooters on the same targets. You can space these assigned targets so the new people can learn from the vets next to them.

 

[1shot]

Squad the new inexperienced shooters on the same targets. You can space these assigned targets so the new people can learn from the vets next to them.

I seriously doubt that a new shooter will learn much if anything from the shooter at the next firing point. Let us not forget we all started as newbies. On the other side of the coin, I agree with others that this match should require an NRA or equivalent classification. I plan my entire shooting season around the BSWN. I would be more than a a little peeved if I got 30 sec. pit service. I can honestly say that I gave and received 5-7 pit service the entire week. I'm a sling shooter, and couldn't get the rifle out of the pocket, replace the the empty with a fresh round and get the rifle back up before the target was in the air.
Rant off...................

Lloyd

 

[Warren Dean]

Squad the new inexperienced shooters on the same targets. You can space these assigned targets so the new people can learn from the vets next to them.

NO. The SWN is NOT a school. For every inexperienced and unqualified shooter that gets in, that means an experienced and qualified shooter gets left out.

 

[rardoin]

...

From my experience, I would not be the better shooter I am today if the BSWN was invitation only. In 2017, I was a Marksman. I had no real mentor in ftr at my club. I went to the BSWN and was able to spend 35 educational minutes Al Barnhart about my set up and position. Later that week I had a scope that was lent to me after mine broke. At 1,000 yards, bore sighting, Ian Klemm cranking on the turret and Brian litz giving us the come up I hit the target first shot. Besides that I had so many conversations and got so many wind tips I got better instantly.

Yes...a fantastic experience. However, that knowledge could also be gained by travelling to different ranges to shoot with some of these same people, or people of equivalent experience, and hone your skill prior to a national. I definitely feel there should be a minimum classification for shooting a NRA National event and it would also improve the BSWN's IMO.

Robin

 

[ShootDots]

Here is a way of looking at this with a different set of "eyes".. Now that we have a record of "the sign up at BSWN" and we know it filled up in less than 20 minutes, how can this be improved? The "First Come / First Served" is the fairest way of doing it. However, it opens the match up to anyone: The best of the best, the really good, the average and some newbies! If you went back a few years and looked at the TOP shooters in each discipline, I believe you could come up with well over 300 people who could be invited and probably would attend. Invite those and let the "first come / first served" fill in the rest. I think that after a few years of this format, you could easily come up with a completely invitational list. That way, at least in this, the BIGGEST match of the year, it would be attended by very experienced shooters! I think this would make it the finest match>> period!

 

[Bob3700]

At big matches, I agree that they should require a certain level of experience. It might not be by classification as much as number of regional matches u have competed in. Maybe a quick demonstration for pit service. I have had poor pit service from Marksman up to High Masters but at least at the HM level they know what the expectation is for pit service.

A knob on the firing line who continues to cross fire on ur target is placing an undue burden on you. Not only do u have to deal with the scoring of a cross fire, the extra time involved effects your focus on the wind cycle. Dont assume ur scorer is any more experienced in dealing with this issue than the shooter who cross fired. They might not handle this in an efficient manner either. Why should u be put at a scoring shooting disadvantage because of another shooters inability. U can say all u want about how u should focus and not let that sort of thing bother u but I guarantee that if u were causing issues for one of the match leaders at Camp Perry something would be done about it. None of the top shooters came to that match for a participation medal!

Slow pit service is a curse u live with. A person needs to provide 10-12 sec pit service at the worst. More like 5-7 sec would be expected. As a competitor u dont want to have to deal with any more wind variables than is necessary. All of the above should be learned at the club level. Problem is that some clubs dont run matches that prepare their shooters for a big match. They run matches that are accomodating to the ability of their shooters so the requirements at a big match seem foreign to these shooters. When shown how to provide 5-7 sec pit service some will say " Well I have been competiting for two years and no one has ever showed me how to do pit service like that!" Lets try to at least train to competency!

So there are several choices to deal with this issue:

One: Let everyone enter and shoot. Then hope that u dont get some new person who interfeers with your ability to compete fairly. It may not be their fault as they have never been taught, but I dont need them learning at a national event ( at my expense).

Two: Require a certain level of experience ( invitation only). Those individuals who have achieved a certain level of classification n competed at the regional level. Club matches would not count.

Three: Have a training day before the match begins ( firing and pit service school) to ensure the new competitor is prepared to compete. Ensure their rifle/ammo is capable and they know how to perform pit service. That would be the best but also places a huge burden on the match organizers.

Unfortunately, there are those competitors who are ill prepared for what they are trying to do and everyone around them has to accomodate their limitations. That is acceptable at the club level (it should be where u learn) but not at national events.

 

[JFrank]

We have a local club that you must qualify/ confirm your ability, I’ve seen many people that could not come close to hitting a 24x24 at 600 yards in good conditions

 

[sdean]

I have read about 4 different ways to exclude a shooter. So who is in charge of deciding which and where. Watch what you wish for. Sure sounds like politics to me. That pit school sounds good.

 

[jkl]

I have had good shooters provide less than good pit service.
When I started I was told if you provide top quality pit service you will be asked to shoot with better shooters.
Then if you receive slow service still provide the best your best. I will always thank someone for great service also.

I have shot in all but 1 SWN and watched it grow, I wat to see it remain open to anyone!

John

 

[m1jeff]

Bear in mind that we are now going to experience classified shooters that have never pulled pit duty.

We’ve already got that at our local range as it has had etargets for three years now.

 

[Bob3700]

Bear in mind that we are now going to experience classified shooters that have never pulled pit duty.

We’ve already got that at our local range as it has had etargets for three years now.

Sounds like more reasons to have a school for shooters new to the event. Come a day early to attend in order to qualify and compete. Now who is the first of u to sign up to be the instructors and the Head Master?

Realize you will have to be able to disqualify someone who is not able to compete. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the one. This is a Big National event and not everyone is ready to compete at that level. U have to qualify to compete in in the Olympics!

 

[MattPeetz]

I have read about 4 different ways to exclude a shooter. So who is in charge of deciding which and where. Watch what you wish for. Sure sounds like politics to me. That pit school sounds good.

So you need a participation trophy then??
Has nothing to do with excluding anyone. Its called being honest with yourself and being ok with it and thinking of the other shooters who deserve the respect who put in their time to be at the top. Its called pride. We all started at the bottom but some strive to be the best and can be humble at the same time.
My 5 year old grandson could have pulled faster than some duo’s at the SWN’s.

 

[243Mendoza]

I seriously doubt that a new shooter will learn much if anything from the shooter at the next firing point...
Lloyd

I don't agree. A newbie can learn a lot from watching and talking to an experience shooter in the pits if he/she is willing to learn to be better. I did. Pulling targets is where a newbie can affect the score of a shooter for the worse.

 

[sdean]

So you need a participation trophy then??
Has nothing to do with excluding anyone. Its called being honest with yourself and being ok with it and thinking of the other shooters who deserve the respect who put in their time to be at the top. Its called pride. We all started at the bottom but some strive to be the best and can be humble at the same time.
My 5 year old grandson could have pulled faster than some duo’s at the SWN’s.

Dont know where you got participation from. Use some other word than exclude then. I started on ETargets and travelled out of town to get some target pulling experience.
I have never shot in a 30 mph wind. Will I need a wind card to shoot? I just trying to say that be careful of the road you start down. Sometimes it never ends.

 

[Jennb]

I had a great time at the BSWN but I was not prepared this year. I bought two rifles to shoot One for mid range, one Plama and 1000 yards. First rifle I shoot the wrong ammo my bullets were too long by .032 of a inch. that ended up with to many flyers. Plama 800 ok wind manly 900 good was getting the wind figured out, But at 1000 the shooter next to me cross fried 6 times on my target just got in to my mind and I started to shoot to fast before he shoot my target. Every body told him that he was cross firing but he keep up doing it. Next day at 1000 Yards half way through relay one my two stage trigger turned into a single stage. I shot a 0 played with trigger to get a fell for it and did not notice a 180 wind shift #2 a 0 over adjuster a 0 -30 in three shoots. I took the trigger apart and found out my cleaning foam had made it's way into my trigger. Last day I got the trigger working But the wind got all I shot was 10's and 9's and few 8's on wind shifts not one X. So what dis I learn mark my ammo better and triple check it. When I clean the bore clean the trigger too. Do not let Cross fire get into your mind.

That is what range officers are for!

 

[Jennb]

Just because someone can shoot to a high level doesn't mean they grasp the concept of good pit service.
I'm starting to believe some of that comes from local clubs that have a culture of screwing over outsiders, new shooters or anybody not in their clique. They carry that mentality over to other events.

I let them know straight up. You get what you give.

 

[Bob3700]

Dont know where you got participation from. Use some other word than exclude then. I started on ETargets and travelled out of town to get some target pulling experience.
I have never shot in a 30 mph wind. Will I need a wind card to shoot? I just trying to say that be careful of the road you start down. Sometimes it never ends.

Sdean,
If u are going to let everyone who wants to compete enter the event, then you need Earl Liebetrau running the event. You will be where u are supposed to be doing what ur supposed to do in the manner u are supposd to do it or make way for someone who can. Go to a regional match at Lodi, Wisconsin, you will learn there.

At the top level of competition there should be no handicaps or barriers. If u have never shoT in high winds before and want to learn, attend a regional at that match location. That will be the time to talk to people and learn. The fellow at the National Match who you want to question for info has something else on his/her mind- personal best or winning.

Achieving that level of skill and ability is a long road with many dues to pay. I welcome all questions at club matches and remimber who helped me along the way. All they asked was to pay it forward. There is a time and place for that.

 

[BP1]

I let them know straight up. You get what you give.

Amen.. I know of a team last year that had given slow pit service and it seemed like when you found the run and gun spot they were even slower so I will have to pass that advice on this year.