Helpme decide between .20 and .22

[munsonbw]

Hi gang,

I am trying to decide caliber choice for my rifle build. I have a .223 boltface Stiller TAC30 and am in the planning phase on parts to buy, caliber being next. I am torn between .20 and .22 class of cartridges and figure a little forum chat might make that decision more clear.

My intended use will be 90% paper punching and steel ringing out to a max of 350yds, but most done at my 100yd range. I am not close enough to pdog country to make a single purpose gun for that and, while i want to try my hand at coyote hunting, I have another couple of rifles that are equally suited (more on that later). I value accuracy over most other factors. I was thinking about mounting a scope suited for knob twisting, but that isn't decided for sure. I am pretty sure I will end up with a sendero/light varmint profile barrel. Something that I could haul around if needed, but heavy enough for longer strings of bench shooting.

I currently have a AR/SPR with a 1:8 .223 wylde chamber, a Cooper Jackson Varminter .223 1:14 (this is basically a Jackson Squirrel, not the Montana Varminter style) and TC Compass in 6.5CM.

My initial thoughts were to build a fast twist .223 or .223AI to be able to push 75gr+ out to longer distances if I ever had the chance (there are some PRS matches around), but I also have the 6.5CM and SPR that can fill that role. Then, I thought about a .204R to get a small, fast bullet cartridge, but I need new dies, cleaning stuff, etc which adds some cost and another caliber to keep track of. However, the benefits of a .204R or .20VT for what i will be shooting 90% of the time seem hard to pass up. Calling your own shots and the flatter trajectory are appealing.

What do you guys think?

Thanks
Ben

 

[fredo]

.223AI, or neck it up to a 6x45AI.
I have 'hotrod' .17s & 20s, as well as the above two. For what you describe, you'd be better served with one of those AIs. Easy peasy to find accurate loads for, long barrel life, very economical, and just plain ol' FUN to shoot!

If you're not inclined to fireform, just stick with the plain version of either. But, you're missing out on ~150fps gain, give or take. It's real, and it matters! That bump in MV makes either one a viable practical match rifle. My 6x45AI is more of a svelte killer, not ideal platform for matches, but I've taken my .223AI along & done quite well with it. A 75 @ 3100+ is very effective on those <600yd PRS targets, and it'll get ya by, beyond that. But, the disadvantage at distance is worth the joy of shooting with no recoil for the other stages. If you're shooting for FUN, there prolly ain't a more fun cartridge to shoot a match with, than a .223AI!

Grab a few 8lbers of Varget, and a couple-3K 75-80s, and have fun trying to burn your 1:8 barrel out!!!

 

[jepp2]

My initial thoughts were to build a fast twist .223 or .223AI to be able to push 75gr+ out to longer distances if I ever had the chance

I tend to pick what I feel the primary purpose of the rifle is. And as qualifiers, I'm a slow twist guy that prefers the 20 calibers. That said, I would tend to pick either a 20P or a 20 Bobcat. I have and shoot several 204Rs but prefer the 20P over them. And I have a 20 Bobcat built on a Stiller Predator action (although in hind sight I should have used a Sako or Cooper action for that one).

But I tend to shoot a lot of PD's and most of the rest is at the bench. I just like the bullet moving at 3800 to 4000 fps. And I tend to shoot lighter bullets. I find it much more challenging on a fast twist barrel to find an accurate load with the lighter bullets. And I haven't ventured into the 20 VT arena yet due to extra work forming brass.

 

[B23]

One thing is for certain, you won't be short on good options to choose from because they are nearly endless. I tend to think, because there are so many good options, it makes the decision process even more difficult.

If you go .20 cal the 20 Practical (20-223) or 20-222 would be very good choices. They are both straight necked down cartridges from their parent case. Not trying to offend anyone but the 20VT, a variant of the 20-221, and the 20 VTT, a variant of the 20-222, offer nothing over the straight necked down versions of the same, they just involve more work.

You won't find any shortage of .22 cal options either. The three that jump out at me the most are 222, 223, and 223ai. If you want to sling the heavies, the 223ai will reward you with the best velocity of the three. As Fredo mentioned, depending on barrel length, you'll generally see around 100-150 fps bump in velocity with the 223ai. This is running it at reasonable pressures, I say that because I've seen and heard all kinds of stories about their 223ai running at near 22-250 velocities, and they very well could be running them that fast, but I can assure, you they're doing so at extreme pressure limits. Just because these small cases can take a lot of abuse, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so.

 

[nmkid]

My last 2 builds have been the 20P and a 22 Creedmoor. Both super easy to form and a blast to shoot. The 20P is just crazy accurate with 40 Hornady's. The 22 Creedmoor is almost as accurate flinging 80 gr. Hornady's at 3,511, (10 shot average) fps out of a 28" barrel. Will be hopefully moving back out to Colorado soon and can't wait to line up the Creedmoor on a coyote. The only problem I have right now is...Opening my safe door and deciding which one goes to the range on that particular day!

 

[GAnderson]

jepp2 and B23...why is the 20VT "more work"? I take Lapua and Remington 221FB brass, run it thru the Full Length 20VT die, load it and shoot it. For my 20 Practical and 20 Tactical using 223 brass, I do the same...run them thru FL dies, load and shoot. I guess I would like to know what else you all are having to do to 221FB brass, other than just necking it down, to make it into a 20VT...just curious, as I don't do anything any different than what I said above...to me the 20Tac, 20Prac and 20VT are the easiest. Thanks

Gene

 

[B23]

But you aren't shooting the same load in your virgin formed brass as you are after you've fireformed them are you? Everyone I've talked to that shoots a 20VT doesn't shoot the same load in both, maybe you do but the others I've talked have to, though they were similar, still had two different loads.

 

[GAnderson]

The only 2 things that change are the neck diameter and very slight shoulder angle change, so there is no reason to change the load...so, yes I shoot the same load from the start. It's not like going from a standard cartridge to an Ackley Improved cartridge...we are only talking just a few degrees of shoulder angle change. I don't remember offhand what the shoulder change is for the VT but for instance, the 20 Tac goes from a 27 degree shoulder to 30 degree. My loads are the same...the Full length die for the most part forms the shoulders, so it is 99.9% already formed.
Again, you are not making an AI cartridge in the standard 20VT...so I don't consider it having to be "fire formed" at all.
People claim the same thing with the 20Tac all the time that you have to "fire form" it. Run the brass thru the Form die or a FL bushing die, load it and shoot it...same load, no difference. The dies do the forming...that's what they are for...it really is that simple.

 

[GAnderson]

I just checked and the 20VT takes a 221FB shoulder from 25 degrees to 30 degrees...the FL die pretty much gets it formed then.

 

[dolek]

The only 2 things that change are the neck diameter and very slight shoulder angle change, so there is no reason to change the load...so, yes I shoot the same load from the start. It's not like going from a standard cartridge to an Ackley Improved cartridge...we are only talking just a few degrees of shoulder angle change. I don't remember offhand what the shoulder change is for the VT but for instance, the 20 Tac goes from a 27 degree shoulder to 30 degree. My loads are the same...the Full length die for the most part forms the shoulders, so it is 99.9% already formed.
Again, you are not making an AI cartridge in the standard 20VT...so I don't consider it having to be "fire formed" at all.
People claim the same thing with the 20Tac all the time that you have to "fire form" it. Run the brass thru the Form die or a FL bushing die, load it and shoot it...same load, no difference. The dies do the forming...that's what they are for...it really is that simple.

20 Tac here... I read all that WWW stuff about fireforming brass and changing the load ...after plenty of testing...No need at all,same load from the start. I have used virgin Dakota/Lapua ,Remington,PPU,Winchester,Federal and Hornady...also tried LC and PMC range brass . Makes no difference that I have witnessed .

Also,I started out using a Redding form die before FL sizing .223 brass...I no longer bother with that extra step.

 

[steve123]

There's also the fact that AI cartridges don't need trimming as often.

As well as being able to pick the low node/lower pressure, and get the same or a little more velocity as the parent case, which extends barrel life, throat life and brass life.

223AI is quite impressive.

So is 20-221AI.

I'm happy with both and what they offer.

Though IMO the short 221 case is better suited to a smaller action vs a standard short action, which is exactly why I went to 223AI in my M700 and why my CZ527 is still in 20-221AI.

If only there was a magazine that would take a 2.63" OACL for 223AI!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because those 88's at 2800+ fps do very well at longer distances. Which brings me to using the BR case for them for my next project.

 

[jepp2]

jepp2 and B23...why is the 20VT "more work"?

I was working from the assumption of using 223 as the parent case. (mainly due to expense of Lapua and quality and availability of Rem)

 

[mikeinct]

I vote for a Tac 20 easy to do 1-11 twist...39gr Sierra BK bullet...I have not really used my 22-250 since I built it, 13 years ago...It is potent out to 500 meters..& easy to shoot well...Good luck w your build..Mike in Ct

 

[Lucky Shooter]

Good advice is cheap and plentiful.

My most recent build was a 20 VT-----and my only regret is that I didn't get into this years ago.

This was not cheap-----barrel, borrowed reamer, dies and cleaning equipment added up pretty fast but this is one more sweet rifle.

You have quite a few very good options and some very knowledgeable folks making recommendations.

Enjoy your trip.

A. Weldy

 

[varmintshooter]

you NEED a 20 vt if you are only shooting out to 300 yds. About 400 rounds from a pound of powder, great barrel life, low recoil so you see your hits and they are very accurate. You can shoot farther if you want as I have a couple ghog kills @ 504 and 512 with mine. Making brass from 223 is some work but it works, or get some 221 brass. I use the same load to form and have had no problem.

 

[munsonbw]

well, B23 said it best there would be no shortage of choices in both the calibers. I had forgotten that I more or less tossed out the 204R in favor of the 20P, but many speak highly of the 20VT that makes it very interesting to me. I think in the .22 class it seems that it is hard to beat the 223AI. As it turns out my dad has a reamer for it, but I had thought about a Criterion remage to save my dad the headache of making me a barrel.

Perhaps a question I should have asked earlier, why pick 20 over 22? Some of you already provided the basic answer, but maybe I should put the question out there directly. For me, 22 allows for a single caliber of bullets to keep on hand. At my current free time allowance, less "stuff" to support the cartridge seems like a good idea. However, the softer shooting of the 20 might be a good compliment? FWIW, I intend for this to be the rifle I shoot the most.

Fredo, you are shooting PRS with the 223AI? So, that puts you into open?

 

[B23]

I just checked and the 20VT takes a 221FB shoulder from 25 degrees to 30 degrees...the FL die pretty much gets it formed then.

The 221FB has a 23 degree shoulder angle and the 17 FB is 30 degrees. The 20VT, like you said, has a 30 degree shoulder but the shoulder is pushed back so it ends up having a shorter main body, but a longer neck than the 221FB. I think the 20VT ends up having a tiny bit less case taper than the 221FB too.

 

[varmintshooter]

For a small case it is hard to beat a 223AI

 

[GAnderson]

I was working from the assumption of using 223 as the parent case. (mainly due to expense of Lapua and quality and availability of Rem)

I can understand then what was meant by "more work" if you are forming 20VT from 223 brass. But with several "parent" 221FB cartridges available, it isn't necessary to form it from 223 brass unless you enjoy doing it. There are other brands of 221FB brass available besides Lapua and Remington...Nosler and Norma make it also.
I guess I look at it from the standpoint of the 20VT is not a "hot rod" cartridge...you will be hard pressed to wear the brass out on a VT...therefore 200-300 pieces of Lapua will out last a few barrels...so the initial investment is really long term.

 

[GAnderson]

The 221FB has a 23 degree shoulder angle and the 17 FB is 30 degrees. The 20VT, like you said, has a 30 degree shoulder but the shoulder is pushed back so it ends up having a shorter main body, but a longer neck than the 221FB. I think the 20VT ends up having a tiny bit less case taper than the 221FB too.

OK...so I run it thru the FL die and it necks it down, pushes the shoulder back and does it all in one stroke of the press. The overall process is really not changing the volume any significant amount, therefore there is no difference in this "so called" fire form load and your final load...you really don't need to change a thing as far as your load goes. It is that simple.