F-open rule experts

[Alex Wheeler]

The way I read the rules, a rear bag could have feet under it like a front rest so long as they are part of the bag. True or false?
















3.4.1 Rifl e Rests - (a) F-Class Open Rifl e (F-O) - The rifl e may be supported by any means which provides no positive mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot. Subject to: (1) No more than two rests may be used. If two rests are employed, they may not be attached to each other. (2) The use of “tables i.e. a single fl at solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited. Carpet or similarly fl exible matting may be placed under the front rest and rear bag. Separate fl at boards and or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on a given side may also be placed under the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may be as wide as necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point, but not be more than 12” front to rear. It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet. No levelling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be fl at on the top and bottom. (3) A front rest may be employed for either the rifl e’s foreend or for the forward hand. If attached, clamped, or held to the rifl e, the front rest must be included in the rifl e’s overall weight (Rule 3.4(a)). (4) No portion of the rifl e’s butt or pistol grip shall rest directly on the ground or on any hard surface. Furthermore, any rear rest employed shall not be attached, clamped, or held onto the rifl e in any manner. Mechanically adjustable rear rests are not allowed. (5) As an alternative to (3) or (4), the rifl e may be rested on a simple central support such as a rolled jacket, towel, blanket, or groundsheet, or upon a sandbag or beanbag. (6) Any number and type of objects may be placed beneath each rest to compensate for variations in the height of the slope of the fi ring point or to reduce its rolling. (7) The front rest or base may have up to three spiked feet which may be pressed into the ground by no more than 50mm (approximately 2 inches) provided this causes no signifi cant harm to the fi ring point. (8) Rests may be adjusted after any shot to compensate for rest movement or settling. A sling may be used in conjunction with the rest(s), but its weight will be included in the rifl e’s overall weight (Rule 3.4(a)).

 

[Immike]

The way I read the rules, a rear bag could have feet under it like a front rest so long as they are part of the bag. True or false?.

Flat bottom.

 

[Blackthorn]

+1 with Immike
I would say false. Rules state "Mechanically adjustable rear rests are not allowed". I think screw based feet would be considered mechanical...

 

[Jay Christopherson]

My totally inexpert opinion is that even if you have loop-holed the rear bag rules specifically (given that you are NOT proposing a "board or plate" as the rules state for being flat-bottomed, but something that would be integral to the bag itself), that you are probably going to get 3.18'd, the "spirit of the rules" provision.

 

[swehrman]

I'm by no means an expert in the F-Open rules, but I think as long as the feet were not adjustable it would be ok. I don't see anything in the 3.4.1 section that mentions the rear rest has to have a flat bottom, or that it can't have feet. It just can't be mechanically adjustable.

No portion of the rifle’s butt or pistol grip shall rest directly on the ground or on any hard surface. Furthermore, any rear rest employed shall not be attached, clamped, or held onto the rifle in any manner. Mechanically adjustable rear rests are not allowed.

-- Scott

 

[Alex Wheeler]

"spirit of the rules" would make the rules pretty hard to solidify.

Jay's correct. Im not talking about a board under the bag, I am talking about a bag thats base was shaped in a way to have 3 points of contact on the ground.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

"spirit of the rules" would make the rules pretty hard to solidify.

Jay's correct. Im not talking about a board under the bag, I am talking about a bag thats base was shaped in a way to have 3 points of contact on the ground.

The way you state that is a little different - I think as long as the bag could not be construed as to have "feet", then you'd be OK. If it's a matter of a base that is shaped differently somehow, such that it only touches the ground at three points, I don't know that I see a problem.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I'll play with it and see what I can come up with.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

So, a Waltham rear rest would be legal? Or not?

 

[dcali]

Seems legit to me if not adjustable. I'm not sure I see the advantage, but I wouldn't complain about it. The rule isn't exactly clear, though. (Why does it specify that the front rest can have feet?)

 

[kohai133]

"(Why does it specify that the front rest can have feet?)" The front rests have adjustable feet to enable them to be leveled. Same with the adjustable legs of bipods in F/TR.

 

[dcali]

What I mean is that the specification of "front rest" implies that the rear cannot have feet, but it doesn't say so explicitly. Since it doesn't, they sound legal to me, but it's not clear.

 

[kohai133]

Loop hole, exploit it if you're feeling lucky. Half the time when shooting F/TR in lieu of a rear bag, I just use my free hand, allowing the rifle butt to recoil across my hand.

 

[Lbart]

This subject has been discussed over and over, over the years. The rule uses the terms rest and bag over and over but only the front rest or bipod can have spiked feet. The rear rest/bag cannot be mechanical adjusted. Nor, since it is not so stated have spiked feet. So what is left…a rear bag of some design. If you design a three legged bag, make sure it cannot be stuck in the ground or you will be attaching the front and rear together via the ground its self.

International rules (ICFRA) http://www.icfra.co.uk/FC_Rules_2014 Final.pdf
rule F2.7 states the rear may be “ supported by a rear bag “. “The rear bag may not be joined to the front rest/bipod, nor may it be spiked to the ground.”

 

[kohai133]

Larry you are the best. Right after I posted I recalled that ICFRA had this covered and you beat me to it.

 

[ScottyB]

To expand on the ICFRA side of things, the intent of the rule is that the rear bag MUST be flat on the bottom, although I will freely admit that it is not clear in that respect. Expect that it will see some clarification in the 18 month review cycle following the FCWC this summer.

Scott

 

[dcali]

I think the more interesting question is why would you want a rear bag with feet?

 

[nhm16]

Heh, I've made the same argument before. The only (NRA) rule against it that was cited to me is 3.18, which I hate because it's so vague and subjective as to be no rule at all, being it's up to the whim of the match director what is in the "spirit" of the rules. I mean, I don't remember coming across any papers or publications or discussion as to what this mysterious "spirit" is. After all, some more traditional shooters consider F-class a corruption of the "spirit" of high-power shooting, with our fancy rests and benchrest style stocks and truck axle barrels and ultra-high-mag scopes and whatnot.

I'd much rather the "spirit" of the rules being "that which is not expressly forbidden is allowed", which is much more in line with the American way of doing things, not this wishy washy maybe-maybe not-don't know 'til you try business. If they want to ban spikes or the like on the rear bag , fine, just adopt something like the ICFRA rule. But don't rely on the BS rule 3.18.

Why would I want a spiked rear bag? Same reason people cut an opening in their shooting mat so that the rear bag can rest directly on the ground, to minimize movement of the rear bag during shooting.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I think the more interesting question is why would you want a rear bag with feet?

The only real reason is because it's a perceived advantage. Once everyone has one (which they will very soon if it really IS an advantage), it will be back to a level playing field. Of course, once the playing field is truly level, then there's no longer any need for adjustable legs on the rear bag .

 

[RStewart]

Why don't you just write the NRA and ask them for their interpretation of the rule? I have done it often to make sure I'm not just using my own logic.