Do Certain Members of the Shooting Industry Owe Fiduciary Duty?

[Richard Jones]

[/QUOTE]

Lots of the guys who come here, and frankly mouth-off proving they are know-nothings, are also stuck in the horse and buggy age when comes to precision rifle platforms. Bolt-Actions do harken back to the 1870s, whether pinfire or centerfire. The 6.5 Grendel essentially moved the 6PPC into the modern age.

(I shouldn't, but, it's like that car wreck mentioned previously.......)

Say do what? Are you saying that an AR-style rifle is more 'precise' than a bolt gun? Bolt guns are horse and buggy age? It's difficult to tell just exactly what you ARE saying since one is forced to wade through the mucky depths of your rambling verbosity. Do a nongoogle search for the word 'succinct' and ponder it in your heart.

 

[Barrel Nut]

..... snip......... How is it acceptable that the bulletmakers and powder sellers are willing to sell their product without enough testing so that it may be used safely and effectively?

I'm an ordinary reloader living in the real world. I have a number of reloading books along with an internet connection. I enjoy testing and I shoot competitively, so I'm always on the lookout for the newest bullet and/or powder in a desperate attempt to improve performance at the range.

Using the published data, the online information, my experience, a little common sense, and a careful load development program I find that I can quite easily use these products "safely and effectively". I nearly always test loads in excess of the published maximum charge weight, but within reason. For all the different bullet/powder combinations I've tested, I've never seen any problems associated with shooting at or below max published data from guns which which would be considered reasonable. In other words, I'm not trying to drive bullets above 3500 fps from a rifle with a 12" barrel or one with a 45" barrel. Folks who do that are on their own.

It seems to me that a normal reloader has plenty of information from which to develop an accurate recipe while remaining safe at all times.

My favorite bullet maker doesn't sell moly coated bullets, but I always moly coat them myself. And I sometimes shoot these bullets using a foreign made powder often not in stock at retail outlets. Should I expect the bullet maker to test MY odd-ball recipe along with all the other thousands of possible combinations? I don't think so. I also don't see this as their fault.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Well, you might ask Sierra why they ain't getting with the program....

Or YOU might ask Alliant why they do not provide the data you want with THEIR powder.

Berger and Nosler, evidently see that there is Gold to be had in the market by developing data for their products which their customers want to buy.

Are you under the impression that Berger developed all their reloading data in a pressure test barrel rather than using a software program? Why not just buy the software program and develop your own load data if that approach is acceptable to you?

 

[dkhunt14]

I was just non-googling Precision Shooting. They abruptly closed down in Oct 2012. 56yrs of advancing the cause. They shut down overnite and gave no thought to the rich harvest that their back issues had to offer. They could have put back issues on DVD's and done a website. But, they saw themselves in the magazine business rather than the shooting information business.

He tried to keep it running. When there isn't enough money to pay the bills, the company closes the doors. I guess if your broke you don't have money to do DVD's. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

Even if the bullet company published data, it may not be safe for your gun. The barrel can be tighter. The throat can be longer. The lot of powder can be hotter. Many variables involved. Any reloader knows to start 10 percent low and work up. If you really know what you are doing, you would be measuring cases for expansion. The case tells you what pressure you are running.

I feel if a company wants to produce a new rifle to the market, they should be giving data, not the bullet company. I am positive the 375 Ruger did not sell. But an experienced reloader can work up safe loads for it. With the Internet you should be able to find a load for a bullet close to what you want to use and a powder close to the burn rate you want, reduce it and work up. It doesn't take a lot of shots to load one shell and shoot it. Now measure for expansion, load again and increase load. A few shots and you will know where you getting to max. Matt

 

[dedogs]

Your wasting your breath Matt, he's got an agenda and isn't going to budge. I just wish he would go somwhere else to pout about it. dedogs

 

[alinwa]

25 yrs hanging around forums, primarily BRC has taught me that there is a confused subset of liberal humans who try to identify as "shooters." And I've had to realize some hard truths about myself..... I'm simply not as tolerant as I thought.

I'm not ready for coed bathrooms at the ranges.

This thread is fascinating to watch, it reinforces me' Aged Mithers sage advice......"son, don't argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience..."

For myself it helps to recite this mantra....."Al, stop arguing with liberals, You Are Not The Jackass Whisperer"

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Boy...loading for a wildcat must be voodoo or something. It's not, but it does take common sense and acceptance of responsibility if you do something stupid. Come to think of it, so does loading for anything else, too.

Data is a general source of info that is of particular benefit to the novice reloader. A seasoned handloader is on a whole 'nother level. One has to know which one he or she is before deciding to load for any cartridge and consider his or her own level of competence when choosing a cartridge to load for. For the novice, I'd encourage them to stay with a cartridge that they can find plenty of data for...and to soak up knowledge like a sponge, from multiple manuals and any other reliable sources. Not necessarily is everything you read on the internet true, but it can be a good source to use as long as you verify and then verify again, any data you find. That goes for manuals as well. It's always a good practice to cross check data from a given source against other sources.

If you expect everything to be perfect and to solely depend on a single source of data, you should probably leave loading ammo to someone else. Firing a gun is detonating a 60,000 psi bomb inches from your face. You're either ok with that or you're not but either way, you're on your own. Accept it for what it is or don't do it.

 

[jsudduth]

Don't ever wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will love it.

 

[LHSmith]

"Fudiciary" in the title of a shooting website should have set off the "don't bite" alert. Because we feel compelled to help, we responded against our better judgement. On to the ignore list you go to join others on my page of shame.

 

[johnfred1965]

I'm not ready for coed bathrooms at the ranges

We have a co-ed bathroom at our range....its called a port-O-let

 

[338 Mollett]

I'm very proud of you guy's! Keep up the good work!

 

[snert]

I researched previous posts back into 2012. All had the same general attitude from the OP. Seems to be cyclic. To avoid further I have hit the fashionable ignore button as well. It is so nice to be able to limit who I invite into my world.

This thread makes me wonder if he ever worked at a business? Or visited Sierra and saw the production/test facilities? Or understands what happens to businesses as they change hands? When I was 14 I thought the big companies such as Sierra where omniscient, omnipotent. (Two big words...) Now I realize that all businesses are like people...they do the best they can, they have limited resources and they change as time goes by. I thank God that ours is still a free market capitalist economy because when one falters, another takes its place...unlike some economies where it is is said "We will pretend to work and you continue to pretend to pay us" . We have choices.

besides...the 375 issue can be solved by cast bullets! Pour some wheelweights, fill the case with Trailboss and let er fly!

 

[alinwa]

I guess this thread has served a good purpose for me. I've had to isolate the one single thing that made me reply to it and oddly enough it's the SAFETY aspect. Digging down made me realize that the difference between me and the OP is safety, real safety. At first I thought "the difference is one of accountability....that I, as a conservative am all about personal accountability..." but then I realized, NO, this isn't a political issue, it's a safety issue. I'm an NRA certified, WA certified Firearms Safety Instructor and I teach that safety starts 'wayyy down inside. It's a passion, a need to understand the WHY of things...the WHY of how to truly act in a safe and responsible manner.

As opposed to legislating safety.

I fight this same fight daily on construction sites.....but I digress.

I remember clearly the time Uncle Pervy Biden was telling his a'stitchuants how to respond to a home invasion..."step out on the deck wit' yer double barrel and fire a couple......and I guarantee they won't keep coming"....etc etc

I recall how my gorge rose so quickly I nearly vomited. There's just SO MUCH WRONG with that statement. It's hard for me to lose the picture of that doddering fool skylined against his own patio door waving an empty shotgun and gibbering incoherently...

So, I'll try one plea to the OP....."Please, learn how to live safely instead of voting for people to protect you"

please

 

[jpretle]

Well gents, i read the 1st 3 pages and decided i had read too far, but i will leave this comment.
It comes down to personal responsibility, whether you have the data or not.

 

[hogpatrol]

I'm still trying to find the statute that says if using a firearm, one is required by law to use reloads, either self made or by others.

 

[hogan]

25 yrs hanging around forums, primarily BRC has taught me that there is a confused subset of liberal humans who try to identify as "shooters." And I've had to realize some hard truths about myself..... I'm simply not as tolerant as I thought.

I'm not ready for coed bathrooms at the ranges.

This thread is fascinating to watch, it reinforces me' Aged Mithers sage advice......"son, don't argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience..."

For myself it helps to recite this mantra....."Al, stop arguing with liberals, You Are Not The Jackass Whisperer"

Aside from maybe an indoor range or major facility like Whittington (NRA Raton), have never seen a range with "bathrooms". Porta-cans yes; but gender specific "bathrooms" like with hand washing and tile floors? You're really just talking here and proving you are in the fool camp you so deride, ain't ya? You have no idea about anyone's politics here, or their knowledge of matters related to precision shooting and handloading. But here is the internet and you have freedom to announce to the world that you lack reading comprehension and so don't understand the topic. Sure doesn't discourage you from "contributing" though....

We'll file your "contribution" here under Sanitary Waste Handling At The Gun Range; but wonder why you even sought to introduce that topic here?
Oh well, thanks for contributing.

 

[ireload2]

What exactly was your contribution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms


Aside from maybe an indoor range or major facility like Whittington (NRA Raton), have never seen a range with "bathrooms". Porta-cans yes; but gender specific "bathrooms" like with hand washing and tile floors? You're really just talking here and proving you are in the fool camp you so deride, ain't ya? You have no idea about anyone's politics here, or their knowledge of matters related to precision shooting and handloading. But here is the internet and you have freedom to announce to the world that you lack reading comprehension and so don't understand the topic. Sure doesn't discourage you from "contributing" though....

We'll file your "contribution" here under Sanitary Waste Handling At The Gun Range; but wonder why you even sought to introduce that topic here?
Oh well, thanks for contributing.

 

[johnfred1965]

25 yrs hanging around forums, primarily BRC has taught me that there is a confused subset of liberal humans who try to identify as "shooters." And I've had to realize some hard truths about myself..... I'm simply not as tolerant as I thought.

I'm not ready for coed bathrooms at the ranges.

This thread is fascinating to watch, it reinforces me' Aged Mithers sage advice......"son, don't argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience..."

For myself it helps to recite this mantra....."Al, stop arguing with liberals, You Are Not The Jackass Whisperer"

I'm sorry Al, had I known portable toilets were another of Hogan's hot buttons, I wouldn't have mentioned them!

 

[johnfred1965]

Trolls: ride'em til they buck ya, or don't ride 'em at all!

Yaaah! 100