Do Certain Members of the Shooting Industry Owe Fiduciary Duty?

[alinwa]

Aside from maybe an indoor range or major facility like Whittington (NRA Raton), have never seen a range with "bathrooms". Porta-cans yes; but gender specific "bathrooms" like with hand washing and tile floors? You're really just talking here and proving you are in the fool camp you so deride, ain't ya? You have no idea about anyone's politics here, or their knowledge of matters related to precision shooting and handloading. But here is the internet and you have freedom to announce to the world that you lack reading comprehension and so don't understand the topic. Sure doesn't discourage you from "contributing" though....

We'll file your "contribution" here under Sanitary Waste Handling At The Gun Range; but wonder why you even sought to introduce that topic here?
Oh well, thanks for contributing.

Thank you Hogan.....

say, I SAY SON... I keep pitchin' 'em and you keep missin' 'em......Ya' Got A HOLE In Yer Glove Son...

OK, OK.....edit....

Against my better judgement I'm going to add to this post just because I know, I FEEL you....you really DO_NOT_GET_IT

[[ We'll file your "contribution" here under Sanitary Waste Handling At The Gun Range; but wonder why you even sought to introduce that topic here? ]]

I get that.

And because I really do care, I'ma go ahead and tell you, once't, just what I mean. I come from a "tolerant" generation. My forbears were not so tolerant. They had phrases like "birds of a feather flock together" and "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" and "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" etc etc. So ME, I'm the EDDICATED generation, ENLIGHTENED even...so I've spent many years saying "awww, let 'em have their experiment"...."they'll grow out of it.....most of the hippies did" but this bunch, this bunch is different...this bunch DON'T GROW UP! The hippies learned that poverty sucked so they changed.....this current climate of "make someone else pay" is unprecedented.

Winston Churchill said "If a man's not a liberal in his 20's he has no heart. If the same man isn't a conservative in his 40's he has no head!"

Your original contention indicates a MINDSET. Your original question and your supporting arguments, in fact your whole persona is indicative of a mindset I've learned not to tolerate. I HAVE tolerated it for 50yrs and I'm learning not to.

Because it's deeply damaging to a society and a lifestyle which I cherish. My motivation isn't political it's societal.

I cherish the American Founding Ideal. And I get it.

(I just can't bring myself to explain why I chose "coed bathrooms" as my shortcut. It's demeaning. To you.)

And I'm not mean.

 

[alinwa]

Trolls: ride'em til they buck ya, or don't ride 'em at all!

Yaaah! 100

you made me laff

 

[hogan]

Here is a laugh for you guys. A quote from a Sierra Bullets email I received the other day: Guy says something about understanding the frustration and then says......
"During the last eight years, (The Obama Administration), there has been such a push for bullets that the range where our data is shot was occupied 24 hours a day, shooting quality control for all of the bullets we were producing. We simply did not have the range time available to us to do new data."

Perhaps even some of you who drink the Kool-Aid by the Big Gulp half gallon cup can grasp the insanity of the above excusemaking????

Pretty ludicrous that Sierra don't have a dedicated facility or lease some space for their testing needs.... Just preposterous, but to my mind it just shows their disregard for their customers and the market.

It is also ridiculous that these guys would commit resources to keep the Horse & Buggy cartridges data current... But they can go broke and abandon their customer base if they choose to... Probably the Fed Gov't and their ammo factories did most of the business Sierra enjoyed over the last 8yrs. OOPSIE, that business came from The Obama Administration, didn't it? As if he wasn't their hero...

There is Shooting Sports Foundation money built into every retail merchandise item, the bulletmakers also have to include surcharges to cover their data production expenses. Sierra had one helluva data support in place for its customers; at one time. Aside from the 800# tech guys, they seem to do Nothing. Evidently they Did Nothing for the past 8yrs, but it will all change NOW>. Sure it will.

I have the Lee Modern Reloading manual #2, revised in 2012, bought couple years back., Asking Lee about data that was not covered in the book, I was told that they added the data in 2016, but that I would have to either buy a new manual for $30+ bucks or pay whatever they decide to charge me to add this one set of data to my, now obsolete manual. What would the cost be? maybe $0.25? If the book costs $30 and has 150 load sets; that works out to $0.20 per load set, don't it?


You boys here (replying) have steel-trap minds... You can understand that "Fiduciary" is a term that applies strictly to financial trusteed matters; and truly there is no "fiduciary" potential for application here. But what there is is a Duty for honesty and integrity, not to mention if you sell bullets and powder (maybe also brass and primers) then you owe your customer sufficient information to use your product, which if applied correctly, should allow them to use your product with no risk of life or limb.

That Sierra will admit for 8yrs that they did NO Testing, but certainly didn't rebate or refund the portion of bullet cost that was accounted for testing and data evaluation, is basically PROOF of my contentions.

 

[sparker]

Here is a laugh for you guys. A quote from a Sierra Bullets email I received the other day: Guy says something about understanding the frustration and then says......
"During the last eight years, (The Obama Administration), there has been such a push for bullets that the range where our data is shot was occupied 24 hours a day, shooting quality control for all of the bullets we were producing. We simply did not have the range time available to us to do new data."

Perhaps even some of you who drink the Kool-Aid by the Big Gulp half gallon cup can grasp the insanity of the above excusemaking????

Pretty ludicrous that Sierra don't have a dedicated facility or lease some space for their testing needs.... Just preposterous, but to my mind it just shows their disregard for their customers and the market.

It is also ridiculous that these guys would commit resources to keep the Horse & Buggy cartridges data current... But they can go broke and abandon their customer base if they choose to... Probably the Fed Gov't and their ammo factories did most of the business Sierra enjoyed over the last 8yrs. OOPSIE, that business came from The Obama Administration, didn't it? As if he wasn't their hero...

There is Shooting Sports Foundation money built into every retail merchandise item, the bulletmakers also have to include surcharges to cover their data production expenses. Sierra had one helluva data support in place for its customers; at one time. Aside from the 800# tech guys, they seem to do Nothing. Evidently they Did Nothing for the past 8yrs, but it will all change NOW>. Sure it will.

I have the Lee Modern Reloading manual #2, revised in 2012, bought couple years back., Asking Lee about data that was not covered in the book, I was told that they added the data in 2016, but that I would have to either buy a new manual for $30+ bucks or pay whatever they decide to charge me to add this one set of data to my, now obsolete manual. What would the cost be? maybe $0.25? If the book costs $30 and has 150 load sets; that works out to $0.20 per load set, don't it?


You boys here (replying) have steel-trap minds... You can understand that "Fiduciary" is a term that applies strictly to financial trusteed matters; and truly there is no "fiduciary" potential for application here. But what there is is a Duty for honesty and integrity, not to mention if you sell bullets and powder (maybe also brass and primers) then you owe your customer sufficient information to use your product, which if applied correctly, should allow them to use your product with no risk of life or limb.

That Sierra will admit for 8yrs that they did NO Testing, but certainly didn't rebate or refund the portion of bullet cost that was accounted for testing and data evaluation, is basically PROOF of my contentions.

I sincerely ask all smiths, toolmakers and service providers on this forum and others to refuse to sell to this person for the remainder of his days! Likewise, if you know this person and shoot with him, the range that he attends should know of his views as well.

Sincerely,

Scott Parker
Single Kernel Scales

 

[ryanjay11]

I never put my feet on their couch......

the range where our data is shot was occupied 24 hours a day, shooting quality control for all of the bullets we were producing.

Sierra will admit for 8yrs that they did NO Testing

 

[hogan]

Strikes me even further that if Sierra has to shoot 24/7 to assure "quality control", then their machines and die sets must be worn out. Did they eat their seed corn? Most of their bullets, especially match bullets harken back to the 1960s. They did revise the 308 180gr to have a new boattail, ad introduced the 175gr smk about 15yrs ago, but Berger and Nosler can launch brand new bullet lines in many calibers. Nosler being nothing short of amazing and Berger making the best mass produced match bullets. Doubtful they have to shoot 24/7 to verify anything.

The old saying is if you can't dazzle em with fact, then baffle em w/bs.... There is no way to bs your way to success.

 

[hogan]

I sincerely ask all smiths, toolmakers and service providers on this forum and others to refuse to sell to this person for the remainder of his days! Likewise, if you know this person and shoot with him, the range that he attends should know of his views as well.

Sincerely,

Scott Parker
Single Kernel Scales

I love you too, buddy. But why would I need you if I own a Scale Check Weight set? I usually endorse the acquisition of these sets to every handloader that has questions about scale precision. But that is your rice bowl, isn't it?

For $35 or $50, the guys here don't need your "service". You know what "service" is defined as in the farm & ranch community?

Why don't you just calm down and instead of bitching at me, why not consider the topic and underlying facts presented in support of the discussion?

ETA: Let's talk "fact or premise" not personalities.

 

[hogan]

I never put my feet on their couch......

Quality control is not load development testing.

Quality control of the product is a constant of the manufacturing process. Every mfr does quality control. But bullets, at least when made on new machines & dies, are what they are.... Did Sierra do QC before the last years on a 24/7 basis? Probably not.

Do they have data for 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, .300 Blackout, .450 Bushmaster, .458 Socom, and 6mm XC and 6mm Dasher? Maybe they do? Seems like the guys email reply would not be phrased as it was if they had been developing data for anything new in the past 10 to 12 yrs... Before Obama, we had big war stuff going on in Afghanistan and Iraq; right? More bullets going to the cause...

Quality control is not load development though

 

[LHSmith]

 

[dkhunt14]

I hate to bust your Bubble Hogan but Sierra did produce a lot of new bullets in the last 8 years. Including pointed bullets in a few, tipped match kings in others and new offerings and bullet weights. They test every lot they make and had to make loads for the the most popular calibers. They just didn't have time to make them for your obsolute 375 Ruger that nobody shoots. Over the years this is not the only post where you blast things or people. Like others have said just go away. Matt

 

[hogan]

Looking at my Sierra #3, it was copyrighted in 1989, #4 copyright is 1995, #5 is copyrighted 2003....
I did have #2 and likely #1 but they're gone.

15yrs maybe longer before we'll see an update to the data from 2003? This is just pathetic. The email I received suggests they hope to get started soon...
Clearly, a big undertaking. There are some 45 or more persons listed as contributing or supporting the #5 book.

At the core of the handloading industry, there has to be data. I have over 16 loading manuals; probably more. Most are pretty current. They are good reading and much faster useful than online resources.

How do you abandon your customers for 15yrs though? Evidently, there is little concern for the customer or the advances in cartridge development.

There is "duty" toward your customer that must be fulfilled if you are concerned about remaining a viable business. Sometimes this means putting the customer needs and expectations before managerial goals. If there's no business, you got nothing to manage. A lot of progress has occurred in cartridge development over the past 15yrs....

 

[dogdude]

I wonder? Are ''hogan'' and ''Jammer Six'' buddies? (have to be)

 

[butchlambert]

Aside from maybe an indoor range or major facility like Whittington (NRA Raton), have never seen a range with "bathrooms". Porta-cans yes; but gender specific "bathrooms" like with hand washing and tile floors? You're really just talking here and proving you are in the fool camp you so deride, ain't ya? You have no idea about anyone's politics here, or their knowledge of matters related to precision shooting and handloading. But here is the internet and you have freedom to announce to the world that you lack reading comprehension and so don't understand the topic. Sure doesn't discourage you from "contributing" though....

We'll file your "contribution" here under Sanitary Waste Handling At The Gun Range; but wonder why you even sought to introduce that topic here?
Oh well, thanks for contributing.

Actually I have shot at several ranges that have flush tolets and a sink.

 

[hogan]

As far a.s the obsolete .375, don't you mean the H&H? That one is now a nostalgia piece, like the Donaldson, Zipper, Bee, .256win and the 6.5 mannlichers and Arisakas. But lets not get confused. If anything is obsolete, it is the RUM series. Even Remington no longer chambers them.

Tipped bullets, yeah they were new. Not really a big deal, but new! And as acknowledged pages back, the 6.mm/.277 match stuff for the 6.8spc, and the 135gr smk for the .300 blackout. Hey, but no data..... The .375 350gr smk was made and then taken off, but now shows to be back.... cool. I also shoot their pistol bullets, at least in .429 bore. Not like they do anything for 45cal over 250gr. I do like their sil bullets though and the 185 .45 auto match.

Yet, Nosler, Hornady, and Berger, and even Barnes have not stood still. Nosler has introed about 5 new bullet lines and Berger came into the limelight since 2003. Hornady has made the great A-Max and new stuff all the while becoming a force in the loading tool and ammunition markets. Who was shooting Lapua before 2003? Not a lot of guys. All these guys have done loading books, some a couple...

Pretty hard to get Sierra bullets for more than a few years. Now there is little reason to even consider them. This is what happens when you don't put your customer first.

 

[hogan]

Actually I have shot at several ranges that have flush tolets and a sink.

Gender specific? Out by the shooting benches? Wow! The joke was about LGBT bathrooms. Maybe they got those at the ranges up around Austin?

Still, pretty amazing that Sierra don't have ownership of their range or ownership interest in one. Other family members started Starline... Why not own your own range, or start one? Seems like a moneymaker... How mujch can a few acres in Sedalia MO cost? But they haven't done any load development in 8yrs. May as well be 15yrs, since the data before the Obama era is no longer current...

 

[hogan]

Pity that the comedian who played Munch on Homicide Life On The Streets (that is him above, ain't it) wasn't cast for Steve Buscemi's part as Donnie in The Big Lebowski. Seems like everyone on the unit in HLOS was always dissing Munch. Now if you'd posted a meme wiht Meldrake or someone who themsef wasn't a pantywaist, it would carry a bit of authority.

Isn't it fun to ignore facts and make things that make you feel uneasy all personal and easy to shrug off?

 

[jpretle]

I went to school w/ a guy who would argue any topic, any side just for the sake of argument. He got so he would just talk to himself, then finally chew himself out for favoring one side or the other.
Now, well now he just talks to himself.

 

[DT]

I think this entire thread is about ready for one of those flush toilets and that the OP needs to get back on his meds or something as this is way beyond cabin fever level.

Time to hit the Ignore button.

Also:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-300m-underground-test-tunnel/comment-page-1/

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Alright hogan. I have a question or two that can either help or hurt..depending on your response.

If you can't find data for the cartridge and bullet you want use, what will you do?

If you load for it, without data and blow s%!t up, who's fault is it?

 

[hogan]

Why don't brass sellers provide loading data?
Why don't primer sellers provide loading data?

Seems like the powder sellers are all there for their convenience, them (above) and the bulletmakers...

Not like any loading manual lists more than one primer with their data...


Just because things have always been done one way, doesn't make that way "right"...

There's always been that warning to reduce loads in military brass, but that is as far as it ever went. Are there differences? Most of you guys think so.


Why no data from the brass and primer people?