Well, I guess that tread caused some discontent. I am very glad that Shiraz had Norma make the 6mm Dasher brass. And I will keep mine. I do however take exception to the rim on this brass. It is clearly long at .006 to .008 over size. Not .010. And the primer pockets are deep at .125 to .130. .003 to .008. Not .010 The head space in the standard 6mm Dasher will not accept the new brass. The 1.600 neck was no surprise. However, needing to change shell holders for sizing and priming tells you there is something wrong. This is clearly a quality issue. and yes all can be overcome. I guess I should not have listened to the speech that Shiraz gave back at the beginning of the venture. The one about quality (30 points of inspection). I also am retired and on a fixed income. Shame on me for wanting something that doesn't put additional cost to make it work. My barrel was already chambered for the 6mm Dasher. I have not found anything that told me the brass would require all new shell holders. and a $149.95 reamer and a smith to take the barrel off and rework the chamber. Plus cost to sending if off for the work and the time. This rim issue is all the problem. I do not believe for one minute that is was designed this way. One good reason why is that some of the rims are only .002 oversize while others are .006 and .008 over Not .010. Anyhow, I made a collet form a 45-70 brass, shortened it. spun the rim down a little below the OD chucked it in my drill press laid a file on the table and a few hours later and after trimming (shortening) the neck they fit my barrel. The primers are now only a couple of thousands below the bass. I'm so sorry that you have such thin skin. Shiraz: Please except my apology!!! I do not believe this was your fault. But, Norma should have done a better job. Ill still buy more when these are done if the live that long. Not many years left to shoot. Oh, and my B.A.T. never had any problem extracting the brass. Keep up the good work Shiraz. Also, One of the persons at Bullets.com did tell me that you were working with Norma to correct the problem!! That was not made up!!
Norma 6Dasher Brass
- Thread starter Shiraz
- Start date
I don't have the ability to measure runout, but I loaded some 107SMKs with my Redding 6BR seater. Started with it up a couple threads and quickly realized that wasn't neccessary. Worked like a champ as far as I can tell. I still want a dedicated seater but it appears a 6BR seater will work if you already have one on the shelf.
I have been playing with wildcats for many years. The one that needed the most work was an XP-100 in 7mm BR. When I bought it there was no brass period. I made brass out of 308 brass and it was not out of the Rem BR stuff. I could not get the BR basic brass for almost a year but I shot that XP in pistol sil. and could shoot 39 out of 40 with reworked GI brass. Some of the people that have whined the most had said: "I will wait and see if I will buy Norma 6 Dasher brass" they are still complaining. My comment to those complainers is go shoot your 03 springfield with Walmart ammo and stop complaining. I'm shooting Norma brass that I trimmed to fit my chamber. The extractor is working great in my BAT action.
Thank you, Shiraz
PS Ben, keep waiting while we shoot
Thank you, Shiraz
PS Ben, keep waiting while we shoot
Thanks Robert. Since the die isn't in my hands at the moment I'll ask the gunsmith to check the case protrusion from the bottom of the die with both a standard 6 Dasher case and also with a 6 Norma Dasher case. Any neck length interference issues will be readily apparent. I would have done the same myself but I shipped the die out before I received the Norma Dasher brass... probably should have waited. Before I shipped it out I used a standard 6 Dasher case for a baseline to measure the protrusion from the base of the die to the bottom of the case and then use a gauge pin and height gauge to check the neck length available in the die and that's how I determined the neck of my particular seater die was 0.017" too short for Norma Dasher brass at 1.600 OAL.
And I always thought the long range shooters were all about perfection. Exact bullet, exact primers, exact weights, exact bullet depth, exact everything. I have heard how poor rem. 700 action are. They don't line up exact. So they blue print. And now I find out that you heavy weights can shoot anything and make it work. No one took on this venture with the understanding that they were going to loose money. Shiraz and Norma will come out OK. Many years ago I shot at Williamsport. One of the heavy's that had a big bank roll talked a bullet company, don't remember the company, into making heavier bullet for the then popular 30's. Could have been 220 230 250 I don't remember. However, the first were not perfect. But, they made improvements on them from feedback of the shooters. The man that did this had to buy a half million or million and pay for the dies. And at the end of the day he did not loose any money. He made money. That is what makes the world go round. If you don't like what people feed these forums, then don't read them. Isn't that how you are indicating we should do with the brass, don't buy it. If you do buy it by all means don't make any negative comments. Warning Just the smart people can make comments. Also writers that have access to everything, money, smith's, reamers, shell holders, can make all the fun of us that don't have the same luxuries. I see that a number of shooters do feel as I do that it would have been an advantage to have made the rims to the standard.
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
Everyone knows the rims are thick now you have to make a decision.
The choices are:
1) Modify the extractor if necessary.
2) Buy a $12 shell holder if yours won't work.
3) Turn the rim thickness down if you have a lathe.
4) Return or sell the cases and stay with Lapua.
5) Whine a lot, beat a dead horse, teach a pig to sing then go back and pick out the choices in 1-4 that work for you.
The choices are:
1) Modify the extractor if necessary.
2) Buy a $12 shell holder if yours won't work.
3) Turn the rim thickness down if you have a lathe.
4) Return or sell the cases and stay with Lapua.
5) Whine a lot, beat a dead horse, teach a pig to sing then go back and pick out the choices in 1-4 that work for you.
Larry, if you have mites, go to the vets. Flours of sulphur does wonders to get rid of them.
I thought most of the vets carried guns . Larry
Those mites are hard to hit with a gun.
To add:
6) Skip a Dasher & shoot a different cartridge, altogether.
For those who were excited to try a "turn key" Dasher but still on the fence, the little 'issues' have a cumulative effect.
a. Shellholder clearance has an easy fix, as stated.
b. Potential extractor mod is an easy fix, as stated.
c. Longer brass needs trimmed for 'original' reamer, as stated. Easy enough, once & done!
d. Potential clearance issue with existing dies, as stated. Sorta easy to address?
e. Need the 'new' reamer/gunsmithing work to make best use of new brass. Easy fix, upon re-barreling.
f. Lack of practical 'real world' feedback on new brass (quality/longevity) Only time will tell that...
Addressed individually, none of the above are a big deal. There's an end around fix to remedy each one. And, if contemplating a new build & gearing up from scratch, really no kind of deal breaker. On the other hand, it does not seem unreasonable for a shooter to express trepidation when considering all of the above before making an investment...
The customer is either gonna buy, or they ain't. The cheers to "man up" from parts of the crowd have little/nothing to do with that decision, something a smart businessman knows all too well. That said, kudos to how Bullets.com is handling things & wishing them all the best! If shooters get what they want and Bullets.com can make $bank$ on us, call it WIN/WIN...
Can see a Dasher in my future, but will remain on the sidelines to watch this play out a bit longer...
Good shooting
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
I will yield that the Norma engineering dept. is smarter than me, but I wish I could understand something:
1. Norma established the CIP specs for the 6mm BR Norma (the base brass for the Dasher)
2. Those Norma specs have the max rim thickness at .0539"
3. Norma then puts out Dasher brass with .060" thick rims (10% over and out of spec) that will not fit in normal shell holders for that size brass and that do not work in all rifles that normally are set up for 308 bolt face brass
The message seems to be there's nothing wrong with the Dasher brass and nothing to fix and Norma would not change it anyway because that would create a situation with two kinds of brass out and about.
Like I said - - I do not understand that - - also not going to get all in a fuss over it - - also not going to point fingers at anyone - - and also not saying I cannot personally deal with it or help others deal with it.
1. Norma established the CIP specs for the 6mm BR Norma (the base brass for the Dasher)
2. Those Norma specs have the max rim thickness at .0539"
3. Norma then puts out Dasher brass with .060" thick rims (10% over and out of spec) that will not fit in normal shell holders for that size brass and that do not work in all rifles that normally are set up for 308 bolt face brass
The message seems to be there's nothing wrong with the Dasher brass and nothing to fix and Norma would not change it anyway because that would create a situation with two kinds of brass out and about.
Like I said - - I do not understand that - - also not going to get all in a fuss over it - - also not going to point fingers at anyone - - and also not saying I cannot personally deal with it or help others deal with it.
I'm not an engineer, I'm not a machinist, my tools are not certified and I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Now that I qualified myself, I will say that I get different measurements from the batches of brass that I Have IN MY Possession. To make it simple for me, I just measured the fattest part of the base I could find.
Norma Dasher- .4679"
New Lapua BR- .4699"
3x fired out of my shiny new Henriksen reamer cut Dasher chamber- .4711"
These measurements can't be qualified as exact but should be a good enough comparative conclusion.
Blowing the base of Lapua BR brass out .0012" has not caused me to have loose primer pockets after 10x fired and counting. I am going to try some to prove or disprove my theory but I'm guessing that blowing the base out .0032" will give me loose pockets very quickly if nothing worse happens first.
This is where my disappointment stems from. I finally got off my ass and ordered my own reamer under the assumption that Norma would attempt to copy what was commonly being used for Dasher brass at present time. One of my Bat's will grab the big lip, one won't. That's my $.02.
Norma Dasher- .4679"
New Lapua BR- .4699"
3x fired out of my shiny new Henriksen reamer cut Dasher chamber- .4711"
These measurements can't be qualified as exact but should be a good enough comparative conclusion.
Blowing the base of Lapua BR brass out .0012" has not caused me to have loose primer pockets after 10x fired and counting. I am going to try some to prove or disprove my theory but I'm guessing that blowing the base out .0032" will give me loose pockets very quickly if nothing worse happens first.
This is where my disappointment stems from. I finally got off my ass and ordered my own reamer under the assumption that Norma would attempt to copy what was commonly being used for Dasher brass at present time. One of my Bat's will grab the big lip, one won't. That's my $.02.
My path is similar to yours with a couple of exceptions. I am also preparing to go shoot these things and see what happens.
I have prepped 15 cases for my existing chamber which is leaving my fired cases (Lapua) at .4705 by the web.
My raw unfired Lapua brass is .4690 at the web and is absolutely consistent. My Norma is .4680 average and varies about .0005.
My chamber is 1.569 OAL with a .269 neck
I have trimmed, expanded, turned and resized using various tools and various shell holders.
The Norma primer pockets are tighter than the Lapua out of the box. I use a primer go - no go gauge and neither end fits in the Norma brass but it primed fine with the Federal GM205MAR primers sitting .010 below the stamping.
In the course of turning the necks I found out that the shell holder in my K & M neck turner was an absolutely perfect fit for the Norma brass. It is a LEE #2. It fit every piece of Norma i threw at it. I can't say that for my RCBS #2 or my Hornady #19. The RCBS is very loose and the # 19 on the tight side (fit 75% of the Normas).
Bolt drop is light (Norma headspaces .003 shorter than my chamber). The Norma stuff chambers, extracts and ejects normally in my Borden Rimrock action.
I tend to shoot hard at times and have ruined more than a few Lapua primer pockets running loads around 62000 to 65000 psi. With current chamber and brass measurements.
We will see how the Norma holds up. Should be able to shoot in the next couple of days weather permitting.
I have a question for you or anyone for that matter. Do you work harden your brass at lower pressures before cranking it up? If yes, what have you found that works best.
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Has anyone shot any of the new brass yet?? I was wondering where they started there load? I want to shot Horn. A-Max 105 gr. using RE 15. Will 32.5 be to hot for the new brass?? Thanks
I have been following this thread since the new Norma brass came out. My order of 500 pieces arrived last Friday.
The issue of "out of spec" case-head dimensions (rim thickness) has been widely reported on this forum. Today, I had
an opportunity to evaluate my lot of this brass with regard to this issue.
My usual process with new brass is to run it into a Sinclair die with the appropriate expander mandrel. In this case, I
have the 6mm mandrel (carbide). I used the appropriate Redding shell holder for the 6BR head size. It has been reported
that this size will not always work and I wanted to see for myself.
Out of 500 pieces of brass, 418 pieces fit that shell-holder. The other 82 were too "thick" to easily fit into the holder.
For those 82 pieces of brass, I used the appropriate shell-holder for the 30-30 Win.
My priming tool is the 21st Century tool that uses the Lee trays & shell-holders. The same scenario was true with regard to
priming. The regular shell holder for the 6BR/308 family worked for the majority of the brass. But the cases with thicker rims,
needed a different shell holder.
I will be ordering an appropriate shell-holder from Bullets.com, just to see how it compares to the two that I used today.
The appropriate reamer (from Bullets.com) was delivered to my gunsmith today and he will be chambering a new barrel for
me in the near future. The barrel is a 7.5" twist Bartlein and it is already in his possession.
The issue of "out of spec" case-head dimensions (rim thickness) has been widely reported on this forum. Today, I had
an opportunity to evaluate my lot of this brass with regard to this issue.
My usual process with new brass is to run it into a Sinclair die with the appropriate expander mandrel. In this case, I
have the 6mm mandrel (carbide). I used the appropriate Redding shell holder for the 6BR head size. It has been reported
that this size will not always work and I wanted to see for myself.
Out of 500 pieces of brass, 418 pieces fit that shell-holder. The other 82 were too "thick" to easily fit into the holder.
For those 82 pieces of brass, I used the appropriate shell-holder for the 30-30 Win.
My priming tool is the 21st Century tool that uses the Lee trays & shell-holders. The same scenario was true with regard to
priming. The regular shell holder for the 6BR/308 family worked for the majority of the brass. But the cases with thicker rims,
needed a different shell holder.
I will be ordering an appropriate shell-holder from Bullets.com, just to see how it compares to the two that I used today.
The appropriate reamer (from Bullets.com) was delivered to my gunsmith today and he will be chambering a new barrel for
me in the near future. The barrel is a 7.5" twist Bartlein and it is already in his possession.
Phil
Gold $$ Contributor
Does the brass fit my shell holder........no.
Have i tried it in any of my Bat rifles, to see if it will extract.....no.
Will i be going on vacation for a week with the family........yes.
I will tackle the issues after i return, shell holder, reamer measurements, confer with persons (multiple ) that are smarter than me on these, order a reamer, check into a sizing die ( have one made if necessary ), use said reamer to cut Wilson seater blank, modify extractor(s) if necessary, address load development, hope and pray that the thicker case rim will let me lean on this case.
Hopefully the R-15 / 3000-3050fps. threshold will be attainable at the very least, then and only then will i decide for myself if this will be the way to go......
The long neck is sexy as hell.......
Good luck to the others who decide to travel the road, and please gentlemen act your age, i realize things were mentioned about this brass up front but we all have to deal with what we are presented and we've all had to overcome something one hell of a lot more serious than the little setbacks we've found here.
Phil.
Have i tried it in any of my Bat rifles, to see if it will extract.....no.
Will i be going on vacation for a week with the family........yes.
I will tackle the issues after i return, shell holder, reamer measurements, confer with persons (multiple ) that are smarter than me on these, order a reamer, check into a sizing die ( have one made if necessary ), use said reamer to cut Wilson seater blank, modify extractor(s) if necessary, address load development, hope and pray that the thicker case rim will let me lean on this case.
Hopefully the R-15 / 3000-3050fps. threshold will be attainable at the very least, then and only then will i decide for myself if this will be the way to go......
The long neck is sexy as hell.......
Good luck to the others who decide to travel the road, and please gentlemen act your age, i realize things were mentioned about this brass up front but we all have to deal with what we are presented and we've all had to overcome something one hell of a lot more serious than the little setbacks we've found here.
Phil.
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