17AH - reloading question

[master_photog]

Looking for an explanation, I'm missing something. I've purchased some reloading hardware recently based on suggestions and reviews and have a question on something I'm not understanding, I'm missing something obvious (I'm sure).

I now have close to 500 22H Winchester brass (virgin) and I'm ready to start load development and forming.

What I have is:

A Redding forming die
A Wilson straight line bushing neck die - with .189 bushing
A Wilson straight line bullet seating die

Since I was not certain on the bushing size, I sent 4 pieces of my virgin brass to my 17AH pro and he sent me back the .189 bushing. He also resized the 4 pieces of brass that I sent him.

What would be the reason the neck size is still way off? My .172 Hornady Zmax slips right in and out of the neck. Refer to the images for illustration purposes. I'm obviously missing something, but not sure what.

I do plan on calling him, but he's closed on the weekend. The not knowing what I'm missing is killing me, this is the reason for the post.

Thanks!

 

[Jeremy(WI)]

Have you run the brass through the 189 bushing die? It looks like the brass is sized to 20 cal

 

[dedogs]

master, Need a little more information. Is this for a factory rifle or a custom chamber?
My Winchester .22 Hornet brass measures .085 neck wall thickness. .085X2= .017+ .172= .189. Now your .22 brass SHOULD get a little thicker when you neck it down but sometimes this does not happen in my experience. If your brass is not getting thicker in the neck when you size it down then your bushing is only sizing the neck down the minimum amount. With spring back of brass your inside diameter may be too large. I normally order bushings .001-.002 smaller than a loaded round would be and sometimes I find I need to go .003 smaller to get good accuracy.YMMV, dedogs

 

[master_photog]

master, Need a little more information. Is this for a factory rifle or a custom chamber?
My Winchester .22 Hornet brass measures .085 neck wall thickness. .085X2= .017+ .172= .189. Now your .22 brass SHOULD get a little thicker when you neck it down but sometimes this does not happen in my experience. If your brass is not getting thicker in the neck when you size it down then your bushing is only sizing the neck down the minimum amount. With spring back of brass your inside diameter may be too large. I normally order bushings .001-.002 smaller than a loaded round would be and sometimes I find I need to go .003 smaller to get good accuracy.YMMV, dedogs

This is will be for a Cooper M38, I do not have the rifle as of yet.

 

[Jeremy(WI)]

What does the outside of the neck measure? After FL sizing my 17HH brass the outside neck diameter is .191
I fireformed a few hundred 22 Hornet to 17 HH. I first neck size to 20 cal and then run them through the Hornady FL size die and then I have to trim the length a little but just enough so that they chamber

 

[dedogs]

Jeremy, is your brass Winchester or Hornady? Could you measure the thickness of the neck as formed to .17? Good point about sizing to .20 first. dedogs

 

[Jeremy(WI)]

I used PPU to fireform but now I have Hornady factory 17HH brass. The brass thickness at the neck is .010-.011 and the same for Hornady and PPU.

I did have one piece of Winchester brass that was fireformed and I can't find it. It was sent to me by a guy that I bought some Hornady brass from a few years ago

The strange thing is that the outside measurement on loaded 17 HH and 17WSM is very close, with the 17 WSM being about .003" wider but it could be exaggerated because of the crimp

 

[1raggedhole]

Size it down to smaller diameter, about 0.172" + case neck thickness (x2) -0.002".

 

[Jeremy(WI)]

Size it down to smaller diameter, about 0.172" + case neck thickness (x2) -0.002".

I am not sure if it matters but a poster on saubier.com used a .190 bushing on WW brass and a .188 on RP brass, so the OP's bushing should work fine

 

[dedogs]

I am not sure if it matters but a poster on saubier.com used a .190 bushing on WW brass and a .188 on RP brass, so the OP's bushing should work fine

Not if his Winchester brass neck wall thickness measures .085 like mine does. That's good to know that Hornady and PPU necks are thicker. dedogs

 

[Catfish]

I think your sizing die is mismarked.

 

[Jeremy(WI)]

I think your sizing die is mismarked.

Why isn't the neck bushing in the die?

master_photog needs to give us some caliper readings before anyone can really help

 

[master_photog]

I will have more answers tomorrow. I believe there are dies that I still need for this process. I only have three, I need at least 3 more dies to complete the 17AH forming process.

 

[rickiesrevenge]

I don't think you need 3 more dies to make 17AH brass. I'm not home to measure the neck diameter of my loaded cartridges but I believe its .190". I used a bullberry double ended form die to neck down the cases from 22H to 17 caliber. My FL 2 die set was set so that there was a little tension when closing the bolt on a piece of brass. Never had any issues with them.

Aaron

 

[master_photog]

These are the dies I have been advised to use for the 17AH.

1 17AH forming die
2 17AH Trim die
3 17AH FL die
4 17AH Neck Sizing die
.189, .190, .191 neck bushings for sizing die.
5 17AH seating die

While not necessary, the micrometer top for this die makes things lots easier.

 

[danny]

Measure the ID of the bushing to see if it is the size marked on it. The bushing looks large compared to the size of the bullet.

Danny

 

[Jeremy(WI)]

I would just slowly run the brass through the FL sizing die once

 

[gunner8305]

I form a lot of 22 hornet brass to 17 AH as well. It was mentioned earlier the use of the Bullberry double end form die that is what I use along with my 17AH full length size die. Once the false shoulder is there and the brass is necked to 17 I trim then load up with a light pistol powder charge and a piece of paper towel to fire form with. I have great luck forming the PPU brass as it is a little thicker than the other guys.

 

[AckleymanII]

I form a lot of 22 hornet brass to 17 AH as well. It was mentioned earlier the use of the Bullberry double end form die that is what I use along with my 17AH full length size die. Once the false shoulder is there and the brass is necked to 17 I trim then load up with a light pistol powder charge and a piece of paper towel to fire form with. I have great luck forming the PPU brass as it is a little thicker than the other guys.

I formed thousands with a regular RCBS full length sizer.

Tricks that help:

put a very heavy chamfer on the outside of the case mouth which will act as a guide

lube with lee sizing lube, the white stuff that comes in a tube

Never a lost case and I fire form with about 10.2g of 1680 with a 20g bullet, and for some reason, with the old Berger 20g MEF's
s the best accuracy was always with a CCI BR-4 primer.

I have never trimmed a 17 AH case in my life.

 

[dedogs]

These are the dies I have been advised to use for the 17AH.

1 17AH forming die
2 17AH Trim die
3 17AH FL die
4 17AH Neck Sizing die
.189, .190, .191 neck bushings for sizing die.
5 17AH seating die

While not necessary, the micrometer top for this die makes things lots easier.

Master, While the tools you listed will help you make .17 Hornet you really only need two more bushings--188 and 187 to get a good grip on your bullets. If you switch to PPU or Hornady brass then the 189 bushing you have should work. Trim your brass to maximum allowable length for fire-forming as the brass will shrink in length a little. Once fire-formed you can trim to book suggested length. It would really help you to get a chamber print of the rifle from Cooper. You would then have the correct data to make educated decisions on how to proceed and would not have to assume anything. Hope this helps, dedogs