Wow, can something this inexpensive be that good?

[amlevin]

In my quest for case prep perfection I have managed to accumulate several sizing dies. Some purchased individually and others came with a set I purchased just to get one of the accompanying dies.

Yesterday I was sizing some Lapua .308 brass, using my Forster Bench Rest F/L sizing die ($35 @Midway).

I was very disappointed with the runout, form .0005 to as much as .002. I sized some without the expander ball and then expanded using a Sinclair mandrel. I then reinstalled the expander ball. Either way, the case runout was still in the same range.

For some reason I wondered if it might be an issue with the die so I pulled out a Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension F/L sizing die that came in a set I purchased just for the seating die. ($34.99 for both and a rebate included).

I re-lubed the cases and ran them through the Hornady sizing die, leaving the expander "football" in place. When checking the run out after sizing in the Hornady die I thought at first that the Dial Indicator had backed out of it's mount. The needle wasn't moving!!! After checking the entire lot I found that over half the batch of 50 had almost ZERO runout and for the rest the max runout was .00075 (a little more than .0005 and not quite .001")

I figured that the entire die set cost me less than $20 after the rebate. By extension, I have a sizing die that seems to out perform one that cost more than the entire set, even without rebate.

I sure do like this die. Anyone else find the new Hornacy dies have worked as well for them?

BTW, the reason I bought the die set was that the seating die uses similar methods of seating as the Bonanza/Forster seating die and works well with a wider range of bullet shapes.


{No, I don't work for Hornady or do professional reviews. Just an ordinary handloader that stumbled on something I thought I'd share}

 

[savagedasher]

Why would you go to all that work till they are fire formed Larry

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I use my Hornady 308 die to straighten out brass too. Down side is that mine reduces the body diameter excessively. I can fl size my brass in my redding dies several times without getting the kind of case growth I get in one pass through the Hornady.

I'm only bumping .001-.002 with both dies, but brass run through the Hornady die develops a bright line faster. I get 8 loadings with Hornady vs still haven't had one go bad with redding (11-12 thus far).

Ymmv

 

[BoydAllen]

FYI I picked up a Hornady, one piece FL die set for my 6PPC, just to see what it would do. The FL die makes amazingly straight cases, and the ID of the die neck looks to be about .258. Curious, I compared the concentricity of loaded rounds done with the Hornady seater, to those done with a Wilson, and the readout with the Hornady was twice that with the Wilson.
A tip for the Forster and Redding competition seaters is to trim the sliding sleeve back slightly at its bottom edge so that it is the case that raises the sleeve rather than the shell holder.

 

[gotcha]

In my experience the Forster F/L is very sensitive to expander ball elevation. Lowering the expander will make noticeable improvements to neck R/O. Particularly, if you notice a "grabby" feeling when the expander begins to exit the neck. This "grabby" feeling means the expander hasn't gone fully through the neck. It could also be an indication that the expander stem has been slightly tweaked. I like my Forster F/L but Caveat emptor re: expander ball elevation. Just personal experience.

 

[gotcha]

Now, that's using your noodle Boyd ! I'll have to look into the sleeve trimming thing. Thanx

 

[Scott Harris]

Yes, good tip Boyd....never thought of that and my seaters are not quite as good as the sizers....will have to try that.

 

[amlevin]

Why would you go to all that work till they are fire formed Larry

They were all fire formed. I had the chamber cut to the low end of SAAMI spec and this way I can FL Size and not be working the brass as if it was a Factory chamber which is "who knows what". Sized cases measure the same as brand new brass and fired brass doesn't have even the slightest "muffin top" just above the case head (web).

I figure that going forward, if I can get cases this straight with a single pass through one die, where's "all that work?"

Now if I can just shoot these as good as all the measurements say they should 8)

Gotcha-

The Ball in the Forster die was lowered to the point I could turn the stem with the case fully in the die. Definitely free of the neck. I even tried removing the ball and then expanding with a mandrel to no avail.


Boyd-

Thank you for the tip. I'll see if one of my fellow shooters with a lathe can trim some for me. Maybe for a pound of Varget? ;D ;D

 

[BoydAllen]

With the die out of the press, shove a case into the sleeve till it bottoms and measure how far it sticks out. You know that the nominal dimension from the top of the shell holder to the level where the head of the case sits is .125 so the difference plus .025 or so should be how much you need to take off of the sleeve. Remember it is clearance, so as long as it doesn't scratch the brass, and misses the shell holder a little, you should be good to go. You could remove the metal any way that is convenient.

 

[mikecr]

amlevin what's the loaded runout off bullets?
Your new expander 'football' may not be doing anything. That is, not driving the thickness variance outward.

 

[amlevin]

amlevin what's the loaded runout off bullets?
Your new expander 'football' may not be doing anything. That is, not driving the thickness variance outward.

I haven't loaded this latest batch of brass yet. Later today or tomorrow. I'll try and remember to give the results.

Earlier R/O's have been in the .001-.003" range with a few as much as .005".

I know that the expander is contacting the inside of the case and is expanding. Measurements of ID before and after show this to be the case.

 

[bigedp51]

A tip for the Forster and Redding competition seaters is to trim the sliding sleeve back slightly at its bottom edge so that it is the case that raises the sleeve rather than the shell holder.

BoydAllen

What exactly does shortening the sleeve do in relation to seating the bullet and accuracy? I just measured the distance from the base of the bullet to the sleeve and got .121. Wouldn't this .004 allow the base of the case to "float" in the shell holder and self center.

I'm trying to understand what effect shortening the sleeve has with seating, bullet alignment and concentricity/runout. Or am I missing your whole point on making the sleeve shorter. Both scotharr and gotcha replied and their light bulb came on and I'm sitting in the dark wondering if I'm brain dead and should take up knitting. ???

P.S. Don't tell Bozo699 and catshooter I asked this question, they might tell me to grease the sleeve to increase sleeve thrust. : (bazinga)

 

[BoydAllen]

You are dealing with a tapered ID of the sleeve, and a tapered case body. By shortening the sleeve a little, so that it is the case that pushes it up, instead of the shell holder, the case in the sleeve is improved slightly, the clearance reduced(because one the case goes into the sleeve slightly farther), so that the centering of the case in the die is improved. A friend, who has a lathe and concentricity gauge has tested the results before and after, and it showed improvement for him. We came up with the idea independently. I had thought of it years back, and even mentioned it to the manufacturers, and when he told me of what he had done, recently, and what the results were, I was pleased that my conjecture had proven to be correct. I do most of my reloading using arbor press seaters.

 

[bigedp51]

BoydAllen

I think the light bulb came on but I want to make sure I understand the concept. If you remove material from the bottom of the sleeve the shoulder of the case will contact the shoulder inside the sleeve as the bullet is seated.

But in a unmodified die the case never contacts the shoulder of the sleeve and has some "wiggle room". So my question is if the upper end of the sleeve isn't a perfect fit could removing material from the bottom of the sleeve have adverse alignment effects.

Meaning I understand your removing side clearance by doing this but why isn't this done by the die manufacture? Would different type presses have any effect, I'm trying to wrap my head around this before modifying the sleeve.

 

[amlevin]

BoydAllen

I think the light bulb came on but I want to make sure I understand the concept. If you remove material from the bottom of the sleeve the shoulder of the case will contact the shoulder inside the sleeve as the bullet is seated.

But in a unmodified die the case never contacts the shoulder of the sleeve and has some "wiggle room". So my question is if the upper end of the sleeve isn't a perfect fit could removing material from the bottom of the sleeve have adverse alignment effects.

Meaning I understand your removing side clearance by doing this but why isn't this done by the die manufacture? Would different type presses have any effect, I'm trying to wrap my head around this before modifying the sleeve.

You need to add the bullet seating "plug" to the equation. By forcing the case more firmly into the tapered area that receives the shoulder it better centers the case. The bullet seating plug is pretty darn tight in the end of this moving sleeve at this point. With the case not able to move, and the bullet held firmly by the plug, the seating is done in a straight line. More so than in dies that don't hold the case firmly in the moving sleeve. The Hornady die relies totally on the shoulder for locating the case while the Forster also holds the case body-----somewhat.

 

[bigedp51]

amlevin and BoydAllen

Your both forcing me to get a better runout gauge, all I have is the RCBS Case Mastering Gauge. And the V-blocks are effected by finger pressure and dance all over the place. Add that to all the coffee I drink and my runout measurements look like a heart rate monitor and a patient with tachycardia.

 

[Phil3]

Interesting experience with the Forster. I got better case neck runout results by switching from a Redding FL die to a Forster. And the Redding had a carbide button for lower drag inside the neck. I am not convinced that better results in these kinds of things is the result of better quality. I wonder if there is something in the reloading setup, measurement process, etc. For instance, I found it is possible to have a neck with little runout, but then the bullet runout is bad...due to neck thickness variation.

Phil

 

[CatShooter]

A tip for the Forster and Redding competition seaters is to trim the sliding sleeve back slightly at its bottom edge so that it is the case that raises the sleeve rather than the shell holder.

BoydAllen

What exactly does shortening the sleeve do in relation to seating the bullet and accuracy? I just measured the distance from the base of the bullet to the sleeve and got .121. Wouldn't this .004 allow the base of the case to "float" in the shell holder and self center.

I'm trying to understand what effect shortening the sleeve has with seating, bullet alignment and concentricity/runout. Or am I missing your whole point on making the sleeve shorter. Both scotharr and gotcha replied and their light bulb came on and I'm sitting in the dark wondering if I'm brain dead and should take up knitting. ???

P.S. Don't tell Bozo699 and catshooter I asked this question, they might tell me to grease the sleeve to increase sleeve thrust. : (bazinga)

It's NOT grease, dumb bunny... it's G-96 OIL (it smells so nice)

I spoke to Patrick Ryan at Redding about this problem some 12 or 15 years ago... my interest was in the competition neck size dies - if you consider that a sleeve that is lifted by the shellholder, is not touching the case, except in a most limited way - if the shoulder of the case is not against the shoulder of the sleeve, then the case can literally move from side to side, while the neck is being sized (or the bullet is being seated).

For these dies to work, the case shoulder MUST be forced into the shoulder of the sleeve - then the case is literally locked in place, while the die's efforts are being done.

Pat Ryan at Redding said that customers were so used to having a die touch the shellholder, that they would not except the sleeve floating above the shellholder.

I tend to agree with him. I cut the bottom 15 thou off of my sleeves in a lathe.

 

[bigedp51]

I cut the bottom 15 thou off of my sleeves in a lathe.

I don't have a lathe and the sleeve is too big to chuck in a drill, all I have left is a bench grinder but I'm having visions of the sleeve turning blue and smoking.

So what other primitive method would you advise for a ill equipped home project. I'm retired now and no longer have access to our shop equipment and most of it was too big to fit in my pocket before I retired. :

 

[CatShooter]

A shooting friend saw mine and decided he needed to do it - he used a Dremel with the thin disk cutting stone (cut-off wheel??)

He did a beautiful job (he is careful)