Redding dies, anyone else experienced this problem?

[1shot]

I have a 3-die set of the Redding type S series. 1 F-L sizing die, 1 type S neck die and 1 micrometer seater. After sizing and firing the new brass for the 1st time I finish my brass prep by running it in to an expander die then skim turning the neck just enough to keep the run out to .0005 or less. To my surprise, I’m getting .003-.007 on all my brass NO GOOD! I take one of the worse ones and having already FL re-sized it, run it through the expander mandrel then neck turn it. It’s still .007 out. Hmmm, now it’s time to start taking away the variables. I cleaned the slot on the ram where the shell holder goes, as well as the shell holder it’s self and the groove where the case goes. I take a fresh piece of brass that is .005 out and mark the high spot on the case with a Sharpie. Repeat the process of sizing and the expanding while rotating the case 90 deg. between each check on the concentricity gage, no change. Next I switch bushings, even though the one I’m currently using measures perfect with my dial micrometer, still no change (other than obviously the neck diameter).
After obsessing about this all day at work I take out the F-L die, remove the bushing and de-capping assembly and put it in my neck sizing die. BINGO !!!! .0005 runout before turning! This tells me that when the die was machined in the area where the bushing sits it was made either oversize or off centerline relative to the die.
I always thought that Redding made some of the best dies going with the exception of custom dies, but now I wonder.
Has anyone else experienced issues like this? As always, your feedback is appreciated,
Lloyd

 

[Leaddog]

Lloyd- I'm a long time user of Redding S FL Dies and have not experienced the problem you detail. It does sound like a manufacturing issue and I'm sure Redding would replace that die if you give them a call. I think they would also like to see what went wrong in their shop.

I run my stem down to the bushing and back off 1/8th of a turn. I also use a #17 rubber O ring between the die and press (Rockchucker). The O ring mod has reduced my runout from .0005 to .0002. I neck turn my .308 Lapua brass only one time when new.

Let us know what Redding has to say.

 

[johara1]

I have a large number of Dasher and 6.5x47 dies and your finding are right on the money. All brands with the same thing,run out. I think it may be the cap that screws in and holds the bushing down not being square to the bore of the die or rough not letting the bushing center. I've changed to an other press with the same results, i have custom dies that do the same........jim

 

[timeout]

Lloyd- I'm a long time user of Redding S FL Dies and have not experienced the problem you detail. It does sound like a manufacturing issue and I'm sure Redding would replace that die if you give them a call. I think they would also like to see what went wrong in their shop.

I run my stem down to the bushing and back off 1/8th of a turn. I also use a #17 rubber O ring between the die and press (Rockchucker). The O ring mod has reduced my runout from .0005 to .0002. I neck turn my .308 Lapua brass only one time when new.

Let us know what Redding has to say.

Hello CW, when you use the O-Ring between the die and the press, is it possible to maintain a .001" shoulder bump? Thanks for your advice!

 

[JohnW...ski]

I keep reading about the o-ring trick and would like to know more. Is the die tightened on the o-ring tightly or loosely? I am shooting AR's and I bump the shoulder .000 to .001, will this be an issue using the o-ring? After buying a runout guage I happened to check my .223 loaded rounds which I have used in competition for years successfully, and found quite a bit of runout.
It was caused by the expander and I will be using an "S" type die without the expander in the future. Accuracy has not been a problem but if I straighten the cartridges out it can only help.

Thanks,

John

Lloyd- I'm a long time user of Redding S FL Dies and have not experienced the problem you detail. It does sound like a manufacturing issue and I'm sure Redding would replace that die if you give them a call. I think they would also like to see what went wrong in their shop.

I run my stem down to the bushing and back off 1/8th of a turn. I also use a #17 rubber O ring between the die and press (Rockchucker). The O ring mod has reduced my runout from .0005 to .0002. I neck turn my .308 Lapua brass only one time when new.

Let us know what Redding has to say.

 

[Joe C]

I wonder if it has anything to do with when the bushing is being held place, the cant caused by the threads was not taken into consideration when the die was made? Having not seen one personally, but reading this thread with interest as mine are on the way, it made me wonder...

 

[Shynloco]

1shot,
Sounds VERY familiar as I went through what you described with a new set of Redding Deluxe Dies a few months ago and it was using Lapua 6.5 x 55 brass. I too experienced that same .005 - .007 runout issue using a brand new Redding FL Die That happened to me on about 12 casings out of 40 I was prepping for reload. Called Redding and they had me send the dies back along with three of the worse casings. They called me back and said they'd run the dies through they're measuring units and that they were all "within tolerance." They said the issue was due to bad casings (necks bent at the base because of a poor run of brass) that were already crooked to begin with when it was made. Not sure how they came up with that, but I kinda suspect it was the expander ball and the die was not "floating" had some involvement. What I did was to take a Sinclair Expander mandrel and using grafit on the mandrel and dipping each casing into a bee bee filled jar with graphit, then ran the necks of the bad casings over the mandrel and was able to "rehabilitate" most of the necks. Ended up tossing 5 of the casings because they were still bad. But I'm now on my 4th reload with this same group of casings and no further issues with acceptible runout. SInce this has occurred, I have removed every single expander ball from all my Redding Dies and Full Length size them after every shooting AND use the Sinclair Mandrels on every neck of every caliber I shoot. The runout is good on the Concentricity gauge and my groups are good. Hope that gives you some ideas, but personally I'd have Redding check those dies anyway to be on the safe side. BTW, I use Wilson inline Seater Dies to seat the bullets and the concentricity there to is very good.

 

[watercam]

The bushing is meant to 'float' by NOT tightening the retaining ring. Turn it until it touches the bushing then back off 1/16 to 1/8 turn. That is in the Redding instructions that come with the die. We are assuming that no one is using the expander ball. I have used the Type S dies on five calibers for over ten years with no issues and no O-rings (though I am going to give it a go. It's raining, today must be the day).
Best of luck!

 

[johara1]

I don't see the o ring deal, first after your case is shot check it. Mine have no run out at the shoulder or the neck, now size it with no bushing in the die and check the shoulder and i find no run out on any die. so now size it with the bushing in the die. You will have run out.no o ring will help that. The best dies i found are Forster FL die and have the neck honed for the neck tension you want.....jim

 

[Leaddog]

Hello CW, when you use the O-Ring between the die and the press, is it possible to maintain a .001" shoulder bump? Thanks for your advice!

I don't want to derail this important thread, so I'll make it brief.

Yes, you can maintain the .001 shoulder bump. I bump mine to .0015 and could tighten that up if I wanted to. As for adjusting the die with the O ring, you will have to re-adjust the lock ring and tighten the die down to where it is snug to the press. You only need to snug up the die by hand. No need for a die wrench. I have witness marks on both my die ring and press so that I can go to the same position at each use. I always check my first few brass cases with a precision bump gauge to make sure I am where I want to be.

I started doing this after reading favorable comments by German Salazar and I have had small, but positive results using this mod. There was some information on this website here:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/05/tech-tip-use-rubber-o-rings-with-sizing-dies-for-less-run-out/

 

[jlow]

Did you check the neck thickenss of the brass before you neck turned it? The reason I ask is because if your neck thickness was significantly off at the start, this would indicate that you could have uneven thickness all the way through the body and with that, the case will banana when you fire it and no amount of FLR will fix that.

The other way to check would be to look for runout of the brass after you fired it and before you FLR, that way you will know if it was the brass or the FLR.

One other way is to use a NECO runout gauge to check for uneven thickness in the body of the case, but to do this, you will need to clean the inside of the case real well with SS media.

 

[1shot]

jlow,
Those are great ideas, but every piece of brass exibits the same problem. If it were 1 in 20 or so, that is the direction I would go, but it's not.
Thanks for the thoughts,
Lloyd

 

[jlow]

1 shot, the problem here is it could still be just a bad batch of brass or the die.

The only way to check would be to check at this point would be to check both. The case with the NECO and perhaps to send the die back to Redding. I would check the brass first as it would save you a lot of trouble and maybe to get the brass manufacture to give you a replacement.

 

[Zia Hunter]

If you are running an expander plug/ball when sizing, place an O ring on the decapping rod between the die and the lock ring with the lock ring barely touching the o-ring. This will allow the decapping rod to float as the expander plug goes through the neck. This has worked on my Redding FL dies and typically get runout less than .001 on unturned necks even better on neck turned cases. I recently switched to a Forster COAX and this has helped as well since the die floats in the frame of the press.

 

[1shot]

jlow,
My shooting partner just reminded me that we bought all of our brass at the same time and all are of the same lot#. His brass is always with-in .001-.0015 so the bad batch of brass theory isn't the problem.
Zia Hunter, I don't use an expander ball when I resize as I feel it tends to stretch the cases and even lengthen the shoulder area as it is unsupported when pulling the expander ball back through. I haven't tried the "O" ring method but may give that a try. I know I haven't had this problem with any of the 7-8 sets of Redding dies I use, just this 308 sizer.
Lloyd

 

[Tozguy]

FWIW I had the same situation of runout with a Forster FL bushing die. Considering that the bushing floats (a lot) in the die body, there is no positive control of the alignment of the bushing with the die body. When sizing, the bushing has to 'find' the neck at a point where the body of the case (if tapered) is not necessarily concentric with the die body. When the case neck starts into the bushing, the bushing gets pressed against the top of the die. As the case continues farther into the die the body is forced into alignment with the die. Any resulting sideways movement of the case exerts sideways pressure on the bushing. However the bushing is already pressed against the top of the die and offers some resistance to sideways movement. Not the best of conditions I can imagine with respect to garanteeing concentricity. My conclusion is to not expect any bushing style die to provide the least amount of runout. IMHO

 

[johara1]

If you measure the case when fired out of the rifle and it's concentric at the shoulder and the neck. This is your base to check the die. Take the bushing out of the die and size it and now check the shoulder,if it's concentric the die is straight. Now insert the bushing and resize the same case, recheck the case if it's out the area thats out is the counter bore area of the bushing. The plug that screws in the die to hold the bushing is most likely the problem area. Heat treating also warps the dies if not done right, i don't see the need for this but they do it. ......jim

 

[Tozguy]

Jim,
The counterbore area of the die body is roomy by design. Clearance between counterbore and bushing is much greater than necessary to simply allow a concentric slip fit. This is not a defect in the die. The bushing has to float sideways . The clearance on my Forster bushing die is so generous that it can accommodate some very rough stamping on the side of the bushing and still function as designed.
As Shynloco mentionned, Redding said that .005 to .007'' of runout is within tolerances. This leads me to believe that all bushing dies suffer the same runout issue. Being able to adjust neck tension easily comes at the expense of concentricity.