Wind: Holding off vertically

[rardoin]

Bamban, at this range in the late afternoon in November the sun is blocked by tall pines on the South edge of the range. About 4:15-4:30 the sun pierces through a gap in the canopy and comes straight down the barrel of the scope for about 5-8 minutes then is blocked by the canopy after that. My shooter was shooting x's and inner 10's and I was making 1/2 to 1 ring of hold off calls (no vertical adjustments needed in the very light winds) and a shot hits in the mid to upper nine ring (high). Sun gets brighter and I have him dial out .5 minutes of elevation hedging my bet between a flier and something 'out there'. Next shot was either high 10 or inner 9...don't recall. Dial down another .5 minutes...sun disappears...next shot is 1 minute low in the inner 9 ring. This was before I even considered that that blinding sun was an issue so I assumed the NF scope had taken a dump. Shooter's dad offered his rifle the next day but suggested that the sun was the issue because he and his teammate saw that trainwreck coming and held fire until the range was 'dark' again and did not drop a point. My shooter wisely listened to his pop, kept shooting the same rifle the next day, and shot clean the remainder of the match. I really learned a lesson on just how dramatically the sunlight/absence of affects apparent target image. To make a short story long..... the bright light coming down the bore of the scope made the shot impact high.

 

[Bamban]

Thank you for the detailed response. I will shoot there in April, will keep an eye for the condition you just described

 

[Shooter13]

As a general rule, I think vertical holdoff in a crosswind is worth about 1/3rd of horizontal. But yes, as others have said..holding dead on in either direction is a rarity.

Now when have you seen "dead calm"? LOL I saw it once when I was on the inside of a coffin looking at a future purchase ;-)

 

[Shooter13]

shoot a sighter or five

LOL or in my case 8-10 and then maybe shoot my target!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Now when have you seen "dead calm"? LOL I saw it once when I was on the inside of a coffin looking at a future purchase ;-)

I didn't say it was calm. I probably had a few minutes clicked in...both ways! Lol!
We don't have many days around here that the wind isn't blowing at least 3 directions! Those guys and gals have it made..when all the flags are one color and they just sit back and pull a trigger, whenever!

ps..and Fox does have a good point about watching for changes in lighting conditions. It can ruin your day.

 

[Brians356]

Yet another version of the graphic ... I needed to see my flags...View attachment 1153168

That 3-stage wind force depiction adds information, and suggests that the 4:00 wind has more effect than from any other direction (right-twist barrel.)
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[gunsandgunsmithing]

That 3-stage wind force depiction adds information, and suggests that the 4:00 wind has more effect than from any other direction (right-twist barrel.)
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I'm not sure what you mean by 3 stages but I am sure that you have to be able to shoot what's in front of you better than you shoot those charts. They are only a rough guide.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike
I’m not sure what an aspiring/learning shooter is supposed to do besides use the charts for a starting point we get that .
I always get my butt kicked by multiple winds coming off berms or walls and I try to keep at it.
I’ll admit it I’m terrible

We all do! But charts don't account for walls and berms. And yes, the charts do have value, so don't completely disregard them...unless the sighter and/or target tell you to. The paper doesn't lie. The rest...well. This is just an area where there are no shortcuts and no definitive answers. We all do the best that we can at times and that's all we can do. Walls, berms and wind going every which way, are what tests us all. When in doubt, go to the sighter. If you can't...Good luck! Lol! Just pick the condition you hope gives what you're after. Maybe I should've just said.."I don't know!" But there are times, nobody knows! Ya just do what hopefully works best.

 

[glockaholic]

Yet another version of the graphic ... I needed to see my flags...View attachment 1153168

There seams to be a difference between CubCouper's bullet locations and Brians356's. Look at the diagrams for 1 o'clock wind and 2 o'clock wind.... that's the lower left orange flags on CubCouper's.
Which one is correct? ....very nice diagrams.....

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I do shoot sighters I trust the paper and I adjust , I look for a condition I can handle within the time it takes me to run my rounds.
That’s all I can do.
I’m sure there’s lots of experts out there but I’m not one.
Thanks for listening Mike you’re one of good guys in my book.
J

Same here, my friend! Sometimes ya just have to go with what ya think, feel or guess. If it's your day, you'll guess right. If not...ya won't... and you'll make somebody else happy! Lol!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There seams to be a difference between CubCouper's bullet locations and Brians356's. Look at the diagrams for 1 o'clock wind and 2 o'clock wind.... that's the lower left orange flags on CubCouper's.
Which one is correct? ....very nice diagrams.....

None of them! I do see what you're saying, after a second glance. A wind from the right will pull you up and left. A wind from the left will pull yo down and right. Notice I said "pul". A bullet is pulled, not pushed, due to drag.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Anybody else been having a little window pop up at the top right of the screen that looks like the site is thinking about letting you edit, like or post? It's driving me nuts! Sometimes I have to wait for it to let me edit or even like a post.

 

[Lone Hunter]

There seams to be a difference between CubCouper's bullet locations and Brians356's. Look at the diagrams for 1 o'clock wind and 2 o'clock wind.... that's the lower left orange flags on CubCouper's.
Which one is correct? ....very nice diagrams.....

Turn cub coopers graph around. Notice where the headwind and tailwind are on the graphs and they pretty much match up. Looks like a clock.

 

[Brians356]

I'm not sure what you mean by 3 stages ...

Did you inspect the chart I commented about? Compare closely to the several previous similar (but minus the colorful wind flags) charts. Notice each "target" shows a single "bullet hole", but the most recent one shows 3 holes depicting progressive wind velocity effect.

Some of you want to dismiss these graphics as next to useless in the real world of wind doping. But you are perhaps looking beyond their utility for explaining the basic effects of a hypothetical uniform wind direction and force on the bullet POI for folks (such as myself) who are unschooled in these concepts. A little indulgence would be appreciated. If you spot any errors in materials presented here, fire away!
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[gunsandgunsmithing]

Did you inspect the chart I commented about? Compare closely to the several previous similar (but minus the colorful wind flags) charts. Notice each "target" shows a single "bullet hole" in all but the most recent one, which shows 3 holes depicting increasing wind velocity effect.

Some of you want to dismiss these graphics as next to useless in the real world of wind doping. But you are perhaps looking beyond their utility for explaining the basic effects of a hypothetical uniform wind direction and force on the bullet POI for folks (such as myself) who are unschooled in these concepts. A little indulgence would be appreciated. If you spot any errors in materials presented here, fire away!
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I stand by my previous posts.

 

[Brians356]

I stand by my previous posts.

Oh.

stage n. A point, period, or step in a process or development; phase; level
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[gunsandgunsmithing]

Oh.

stage n. A point, period, or step in a process or development; phase; level
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Thanks for being so helpful. Your previous post seems to have two stages as well.
After reading both, I chose not to address the part about his flag chart and to address your second paragraph by standing by what I've already posted.
That's all. No need to get snarkey about anything.

 

[Brians356]

Brian, I started a thread a while back called windtalkers
On the competition page where several people weighed in, you may find interesting and or helpful.
Best wishes/ Shoot Small
J

Thanks. Re your original question in that thread: if one takes any version of the charts dicussed here (for a right-twist bullet in a theoretical unperturbed laminar-flow air mass) at face value: there is no wind direction that displaces POI into the upper/right quadrant.
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[Greyfox]

Thanks. Re your original question in that thread: if one takes any version of the charts dicussed here (for a right-twist bullet in a theoretical unperturbed laminar-flow air mass) at face value: there is no wind direction that displaces POI into the upper/right quadrant.
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Interesting observation. The charts are helpful in that they give you an idea of what to expect, so they aren't useless. In practice where I shoot most, the predominant wind is from the south/southwest (which is lower right corner), but due to tree lined slopes on either side, we do get switches early and often. Most hold offs are to the right as the wind tends to push most shots high and to the left. However, a change in the light coupled with a switch will occasionally push a bullet high and to the right. In practical application, there is no substitute for sighter shots. Although there are some ranges that are flat and have consistent pushes from one direction, the majority that I've competed on have unique permanent obstacles like berms, tree lines and such. Also, a change in velocity is sometimes difficult to detect if it is on one flag out of four. Seeing these things comes with a lot of practice and/or competition. If one is familiar with a particular range he will learn what to expect from a particular condition. Getting to a match at an unfamiliar range a day or two early for practice helps too. Practice and hands on experience trump everything else. IMO the most important thing is to have a rifle capable of shooting 1/4 MOA or preferably better. You can't discern what the wind will do if you have no confidence in what your rifle will do. 1/4" rifles are a rarity no matter what keyboard shooters will tell you.

YMMV,
Rick

 

[Brians356]

Reading as many guides to competition wind shooting as were easy to find online (and in one book I happen to have) there are nearly always copious references to relying on sighters. I've not yet competed in any type of match, at any level, so excuse this question: Which types of organized matches (if any) do not provide for arbitrary sighters or non-record shots during live fire (timed or not)?
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