Hold off ??
- Thread starter Texas Solo
- Start date
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
I think there are advantages and disadvantages to every technique. For that matter, there are some techniques that are more successful at some ranges than others.
My point is this: I share a technique similar to that which Monte describes except for a minor detail (oddly enough, we have a range in common). That said, I think my technique would be totally ineffective under some of the conditions in the SW US. I would have to change as needed.
I believe firmly in being flexible. If I screw up, I simply try to put the next one in there. If my tactics aren't working, I try to make changes that will result in higher scores.
I think everyone needs to be able to both click and hold off. They need to be able to really make absolute wind calls (I'm not even close yet) and make relative wind calls. It is a full set of skills. If you are missing any of them (like me) you get you back-side handed to you by people with better skills on a regular basis.
My point is this: I share a technique similar to that which Monte describes except for a minor detail (oddly enough, we have a range in common). That said, I think my technique would be totally ineffective under some of the conditions in the SW US. I would have to change as needed.
I believe firmly in being flexible. If I screw up, I simply try to put the next one in there. If my tactics aren't working, I try to make changes that will result in higher scores.
I think everyone needs to be able to both click and hold off. They need to be able to really make absolute wind calls (I'm not even close yet) and make relative wind calls. It is a full set of skills. If you are missing any of them (like me) you get you back-side handed to you by people with better skills on a regular basis.
I think that's an important point that nobody has previously mentioned. You must be able to correlate what you believe you're doing with what you actually are. Ideally, everybody would have an identical (and correct) wind zero, but that never seems to happen - just chat to others after a match and you get a good range of 'average wind used' even from people using the same or similar loads and bullets. In one sense, only knowing what your zero is on the turret is all that matters, so you can return to it or check your read of conditions against what setting's been dialled in. In another though having an accurate zero IS important whatever the conditions or how you aim. If you're say an MOA out on the zero, your reading of the flag indications will be wrong too by 1-MOA. This applies to whichever method you choose as most aimers-off do dial in what they read as an 'average wind' for the conditions then aim-off from there according to the estimate of the amount the conditions have changed from that average situation.
It is an issue for team shooting coaches of course - a big issue as eight individuals in a team can have eight different amounts of wind 'on' in terms of their individual zeros after the first shot or two. I remember reading a post by a GB 'Match Rifle' shooter (308W at 1,000-1,200 yards or even more where range facilities allow) who said this was the first and most difficult job that the wind coaches had to sort out during a tour abroad, probably Australia.
Texas Solo said:
IMO clicking or holding isn't the question to this dilemma. Trigger time is obviously a major influence.
Some things to think about - Often shooters are behind the wind changes - if you are having trouble getting dialed in with your sighters it may not be because you assessed wrong but you are behind and the wind has picked up or dropped off.
In big winds and particularly at the longs be prepared to make bold changes, its important here to understanding if the wind is lifting or dropping.
I think it would be easy to write a chapter or two on how to approach making your initial assessments.
IMO trigger time builds on how you approach the challenge but without a good basis on how to approach your relay and assessments, you don't get as much out of the session or ultimately don't build your skills as far as you might.
I highly recommend "the wind book for rifle shooters" and http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/basics-few-wind-reading-tips.html
Germans article is also on the bulletins on this site. His article had a major influence on how I approached my assessments and also evaluated my results - changing my approach and thought process - I went on to win two Regional F-open matches once I put the new approaches in place.
Good luck
Ryan, [br]
I apologize for snapping at you and for misinterpreting your questions. [br]
In order to not fall victim to what Monte described, I do two things. The first I already mentioned, working on making absolute wind calls. If I do get a little confused, a conditions assessment and reasonable wind call should put me back on track. Second, I recite a little "catechism" to myself on every shot. After I break the shot (seeing where it actually broke), I think "1 1/2 left, 2 ticks left." This means: one and a half rings left (between the X and 10) using the second tick left. That is approximately 2 MOA on the scope and -3/4 MOA hold, so a net of 1 1/4 MOA right. If the wind picked up 3/4 MOA from the right, I would move the second left tick over to a center hold. If the wind let off to the point that the second left tick was approaching the 9 ring, I would switch to the first left tick, now approaching a center hold. This method does not change with distance. At 42X, the ticks are always ~1 MOA. [br]
If this seems too complex, another way will probably work better. I've held as much as 6 MOA and not lost track. Shooting 180 Hybrids at ~2940, that is a fair bit of wind. German Salazar, a fine shooter who has given me a couple of wind lessons (the hard way), only clicks because of his years shooting irons. Some folks, as noted earlier, click for the initial condition and hold from there. I've done the last myself. If the wind seems predominant from one direction and only changing velocity, that makes a lot of sense to minimize holding. [br]
As before, each shooter has to experiment and find what works best for them. Also, be open to new ideas. I did not always use this method, it was suggested to me by Gary Eliseo. I tried it and really liked it.
I apologize for snapping at you and for misinterpreting your questions. [br]
In order to not fall victim to what Monte described, I do two things. The first I already mentioned, working on making absolute wind calls. If I do get a little confused, a conditions assessment and reasonable wind call should put me back on track. Second, I recite a little "catechism" to myself on every shot. After I break the shot (seeing where it actually broke), I think "1 1/2 left, 2 ticks left." This means: one and a half rings left (between the X and 10) using the second tick left. That is approximately 2 MOA on the scope and -3/4 MOA hold, so a net of 1 1/4 MOA right. If the wind picked up 3/4 MOA from the right, I would move the second left tick over to a center hold. If the wind let off to the point that the second left tick was approaching the 9 ring, I would switch to the first left tick, now approaching a center hold. This method does not change with distance. At 42X, the ticks are always ~1 MOA. [br]
If this seems too complex, another way will probably work better. I've held as much as 6 MOA and not lost track. Shooting 180 Hybrids at ~2940, that is a fair bit of wind. German Salazar, a fine shooter who has given me a couple of wind lessons (the hard way), only clicks because of his years shooting irons. Some folks, as noted earlier, click for the initial condition and hold from there. I've done the last myself. If the wind seems predominant from one direction and only changing velocity, that makes a lot of sense to minimize holding. [br]
As before, each shooter has to experiment and find what works best for them. Also, be open to new ideas. I did not always use this method, it was suggested to me by Gary Eliseo. I tried it and really liked it.
Texas Solo
B.S. High Master
I met my mentor at the range today. I got schooled a good bit on mirage. I was actually watching two mirages...one at 300 through my spotter, and the another at 500 through my scope. They were NOT always the same! Amazing stuff. I had already established my hold off, so when the two mirages looked equal, I broke the shot. I did really well, until I failed to detect that the wind had suddenly died for a moment and sent the bullet out in the 8 ring somewhere at 3:00. I have to learn to consider BOTH the direction and magnitude of the wind. When I did this, I knew when the shot broke that it was going to be good.
I'm definitely a "hold off" kind of guy. I was real comfortable with it once I had established my initial scope setting for the conditions, which were a 1/2 value (45*) headwind at 5 mph, gusting to 10mph, then dying to zero, then 5 mph, then 10mph, then.....you get the picture. Great training day!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is where I was at today^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks so much for all the replies. I've come to learn that this game is more about the individual's shooting ability than his equipment. I like it!!!!!
I'm definitely a "hold off" kind of guy. I was real comfortable with it once I had established my initial scope setting for the conditions, which were a 1/2 value (45*) headwind at 5 mph, gusting to 10mph, then dying to zero, then 5 mph, then 10mph, then.....you get the picture. Great training day!
gstaylorg said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is where I was at today^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks so much for all the replies. I've come to learn that this game is more about the individual's shooting ability than his equipment. I like it!!!!!
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
I'm another one of those no good hold off guys! ;D
I have held off the frame sometimes with good results.
Once during a team match, my wind coach which some of you might know by the name of Nancy Tompkins, also had me holding off the frame. She did more than ok using this method.
I have also been coached by Bob Mead, and he clicked my scope to get centered up, and he also did good. So, both methods work just fine.
I have held off the frame sometimes with good results.
Once during a team match, my wind coach which some of you might know by the name of Nancy Tompkins, also had me holding off the frame. She did more than ok using this method.
I have also been coached by Bob Mead, and he clicked my scope to get centered up, and he also did good. So, both methods work just fine.
DBailey said:
Relax and do what she says. Everything's gonna be fine.
[br]Texas Solo said:
A 45° wind is actually about 75% value. A 30° headwind is about 50% value.
Before we talk about hold-off/clicking, I think that we should first talk about having a trusty "windage zero". Competive F-TR is shot at distances from 300 yards to 1000 yards in the US. With that, please first go to a know distance 100 or 200 yard line and establish a good zero while engaging the smallest target aimpoint that you can see with your riflescope. You should strive to get a good 10-round shot group centered about 3/4 minutes to 7/8 minutes to the LEFT of that target aimpoint. Once you have that shot group achieved, set your windage knob to "0". You now have a decent 1000 yard windage zero...believe in it until such time that you are able to confirm it at 1000 yards on a perfectly still occasion. When you shoot at shorter known distances, "click" your windage knob RIGHT interpolating for the particular distance you are at (knowing that you have 3/4-7/8 minute-range to play with) for your windage zero at that yard line.
By first establishing this zero--and NOT just establishing a "range conditions zero" with sighter shots as you seem to be doing--you can confidently proceed with a hold-off technique, a clicking technique, or a combination thereof AFTER performing your sighting shots and as you proceed into string. The "zero" is your INDEX; should you encounter a "reverse of wind direction" in string, you will be able to confidently decide whether you want to hold-over/click-over to engage the target in the reverse wind, or wait around for it to come back to the other side, if it ever might??!
Hold-off or clicking is a matter of preference, that matures with experience, and finally comes to be used in combination. The F-Class target rings are fairly in-your-face absolute for MOA and sub-MOA hold-offs...reticle hash marks are only reliable for MOA when focused at a manufacturers specified power (NF @ 22x). For myself, I like to use the various powers on my NF 12-42 power rifle-scopes relative to whatever the range conditions, so my reference is the actual target rings. And, I've pretty well gotten over my initial fright of holding out to the edge of the "black" after a time! In a steady wind, I will "click" to center and play around with holds in the X-ring, but I will just as quickly abandon that technique while in string for extreme hold-off technique for eratic wind changes that I perceive I won't be able to wait out.
In tandom with whatever technique that you might decide, the most important thing for you to master is deciding "when to shoot" and "when not to shoot" relative to conditions to your front.
By first establishing this zero--and NOT just establishing a "range conditions zero" with sighter shots as you seem to be doing--you can confidently proceed with a hold-off technique, a clicking technique, or a combination thereof AFTER performing your sighting shots and as you proceed into string. The "zero" is your INDEX; should you encounter a "reverse of wind direction" in string, you will be able to confidently decide whether you want to hold-over/click-over to engage the target in the reverse wind, or wait around for it to come back to the other side, if it ever might??!
Hold-off or clicking is a matter of preference, that matures with experience, and finally comes to be used in combination. The F-Class target rings are fairly in-your-face absolute for MOA and sub-MOA hold-offs...reticle hash marks are only reliable for MOA when focused at a manufacturers specified power (NF @ 22x). For myself, I like to use the various powers on my NF 12-42 power rifle-scopes relative to whatever the range conditions, so my reference is the actual target rings. And, I've pretty well gotten over my initial fright of holding out to the edge of the "black" after a time! In a steady wind, I will "click" to center and play around with holds in the X-ring, but I will just as quickly abandon that technique while in string for extreme hold-off technique for eratic wind changes that I perceive I won't be able to wait out.
In tandom with whatever technique that you might decide, the most important thing for you to master is deciding "when to shoot" and "when not to shoot" relative to conditions to your front.
memilanuk said:
Ah .... you lucky people in the US - no 45 second rule! That is, after the target reappears with your partner's shot marked, we're allowed 45 seconds to agree the score with him/her, mark it down on his/her scorecard, and read the conditions / take the shot. There are times when it would be nice to hang back for a flag condition to recur. (I've seen people do this, and it soon shows up on the firing line when an individual or pair are delaying their shots!)
I was intrigued by dannybiggs' zeroing technique - I agree with the vital need to have it, but had never considered the reset to 3/4 to 7/8 left of the 100yd zero in still conditions. Presumably to take account of 1,000yd worth of bullet spin drift? Absolutely logical, but I'd never considered doing it, or seen it recommended before.
Like Erik, I've seen / heard of people aiming off the frame in UK matches - never had the nerve myself!
memilanuk said:
Its interesting as most of the books and a significant number of shooters don't seem to reference this to any great degree...everything seems to focus on being able to tell what the wind is in that moment, but I reckon there are a couple of chapters just in the decision of when to start and when to stop. Getting to grips with the concept (Germans article) had a huge impact on my scores. One of these days I want to pick his brains for what he is looking for "getting back on to the next wave is a matter of delicate judgment and timing".
Maybe if I started the topic a bunch of the top US and the 1 top UK shooter would chime in
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I can say that in my experience a good no wind zero makes a huge difference both in my confidence and my score in switchy conditions.
When not to shoot. It's so easy to get into that "hammer it" groove. Ever see that switch that you're not sure what it's worth. Sit up and watch the targets and watch the 8s and 9s come up on the targets and you'll see that most of the other guys on the line didn't see it either. Wait till you get something you can shoot in, you probably have another 20 minutes to finish, but some days you just don't catch it.
Lastly, there is no substitute for trigger time, and trigger time in big winds. Before last yr I'd never shot in winds like we had at Camp Perry, I had 7 1/2 dialed on in one match. Later that experience made it much easier for me to shoot in the afternoon conditions at Raton.
When not to shoot. It's so easy to get into that "hammer it" groove. Ever see that switch that you're not sure what it's worth. Sit up and watch the targets and watch the 8s and 9s come up on the targets and you'll see that most of the other guys on the line didn't see it either. Wait till you get something you can shoot in, you probably have another 20 minutes to finish, but some days you just don't catch it.
Lastly, there is no substitute for trigger time, and trigger time in big winds. Before last yr I'd never shot in winds like we had at Camp Perry, I had 7 1/2 dialed on in one match. Later that experience made it much easier for me to shoot in the afternoon conditions at Raton.
Laurie said:
Hi Laurie,
When I started shooting full-bore, a fellow club member gave me a copy of the Army Association Precis, a written course paper covering target rifle shooting. In a section on zeroing, the author states that if the rifle is used only for long range, the wind zero may be set 1MOA left of the centre line to correct for the effect of drift (right hand twist barrels). The author is only listed as TJP and dated 1981 although the paper is shown as revised Feb 85.
In my dedicated long range rifles, I've generally waited for a still day at 1000 yards (early morning or late afternoon) to confirm zeros, but when subsequently shooting at closer yardages with the same rifle, to check loads or scope tracking etc, I can't say I've noticed a left bias in the point of impact of the bullets. It may have been there as the ranges I've used for this have always shown noticeable drifting mirage, so I probably overlooked it anyway because I was only concerned with evaluating other things at the time.
If you've not seen the paper, I'll bring it to the range sometime.
Richard.
Thank you Richard.
While obvious when pointed out, it's the first time I can recollect seeing this advice. Bryan Litz's / Berger BUllets' Point Mass Ballistics Solver 2 software has a spin drift calculator, but it didn't seem to work. After reading Danny Biggs' post, I played with it a bit more and found it does work when the output is set to inches. (I invariably work / think in MOA and the program shows zeroes in this mode.) So I now know what I need 'on' with my loads and barrel twist rate. (I'm absolutely sure Bryan L covers this in his two editions of 'Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting', but obviously somehow missed out on this aspect.)
Obviously, the faster the barrel twist and bullet rotation, the more drift and hence correction needed. The ARA recommendation seems a little excessive according to Bryan L's software for early Target Rifle where 1-14" twists were the norm, although the Army may have been using faster rates with rebarrelled Enfield No.4s or it may be a reflection of the ballistics of the barely ballistically adequate RG 'Green Spot' 146gn round at 1K .... or it may be PM Ballistics Solver 2 underestimates the drift from this cause.
I was amused by the reference to doing a check having 'waited for a still day at 1000 yards'. We don't see them at Diggle unless you could persuade people to man the range VERY early or late in the day. I'm assuming you're talking about Bisley here? The spin drift issue at least partly explains why my zero was apparently out two years in a row in the opening (800yd) detail of the European Championship meeting at Bisley on at least one of the two days each time, despite having taken a great deal or trouble to get it right at 100. On day 2 last November, I was squadded in the first detail of the day with bright chilly near still conditions after light frost, the flags just showing a hint of breeze from the right before the weekend's prevailing left wind conditions got going. I thought we might briefly need a touch of 'right' on, but as there was very little happening started on a zero setting to get the first sighter just a bit right, a waterline '5' (10 to our US cousins) at 3 o'clock needing a half MOA left to centre the next shot. I assumed my 100 yard zero simply wasn't as good as I'd thought, but half-MOA spin drift to the right at 800 is just what the program predicts, so now I know!
Re earlier discussions about reticles when I said I like the Sightron S3 8-32X56 in LRMOA guise, one advantage of this form which is intended as 'semi-tactical' is that the manufacturer has changed the turret retention / zero system to a large slotted-head setscrew in the centre of the turret's end-face. While Danny suggests setting the scope for 1K drift (3/4-MOA left), I'll stick to an unadjusted zero and rezero the turret position to suit the range. All I'll have to do is note on my plotting sheet beforehand words to the effect 'Turret moved to show zero ...MOA right of 100' in order to go to the right setting for the next shoot, or return to 100. This isn't an option with normal target turrets secured by three or four little Allen-head grub screws.
While obvious when pointed out, it's the first time I can recollect seeing this advice. Bryan Litz's / Berger BUllets' Point Mass Ballistics Solver 2 software has a spin drift calculator, but it didn't seem to work. After reading Danny Biggs' post, I played with it a bit more and found it does work when the output is set to inches. (I invariably work / think in MOA and the program shows zeroes in this mode.) So I now know what I need 'on' with my loads and barrel twist rate. (I'm absolutely sure Bryan L covers this in his two editions of 'Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting', but obviously somehow missed out on this aspect.)
Obviously, the faster the barrel twist and bullet rotation, the more drift and hence correction needed. The ARA recommendation seems a little excessive according to Bryan L's software for early Target Rifle where 1-14" twists were the norm, although the Army may have been using faster rates with rebarrelled Enfield No.4s or it may be a reflection of the ballistics of the barely ballistically adequate RG 'Green Spot' 146gn round at 1K .... or it may be PM Ballistics Solver 2 underestimates the drift from this cause.
I was amused by the reference to doing a check having 'waited for a still day at 1000 yards'. We don't see them at Diggle unless you could persuade people to man the range VERY early or late in the day. I'm assuming you're talking about Bisley here? The spin drift issue at least partly explains why my zero was apparently out two years in a row in the opening (800yd) detail of the European Championship meeting at Bisley on at least one of the two days each time, despite having taken a great deal or trouble to get it right at 100. On day 2 last November, I was squadded in the first detail of the day with bright chilly near still conditions after light frost, the flags just showing a hint of breeze from the right before the weekend's prevailing left wind conditions got going. I thought we might briefly need a touch of 'right' on, but as there was very little happening started on a zero setting to get the first sighter just a bit right, a waterline '5' (10 to our US cousins) at 3 o'clock needing a half MOA left to centre the next shot. I assumed my 100 yard zero simply wasn't as good as I'd thought, but half-MOA spin drift to the right at 800 is just what the program predicts, so now I know!
Re earlier discussions about reticles when I said I like the Sightron S3 8-32X56 in LRMOA guise, one advantage of this form which is intended as 'semi-tactical' is that the manufacturer has changed the turret retention / zero system to a large slotted-head setscrew in the centre of the turret's end-face. While Danny suggests setting the scope for 1K drift (3/4-MOA left), I'll stick to an unadjusted zero and rezero the turret position to suit the range. All I'll have to do is note on my plotting sheet beforehand words to the effect 'Turret moved to show zero ...MOA right of 100' in order to go to the right setting for the next shoot, or return to 100. This isn't an option with normal target turrets secured by three or four little Allen-head grub screws.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Laurie, my F-TR 1000 yard zero shooting 185s with a 1:10 barrel is between 1/2 and 3/4 moa left of my 100 yard zero. (my windage knob is set to my 1000 yard zero) I think we all know how hard it is to actually get 5 or 10 shots to 1000 w/o any wind effects, so I won't try to claim I know to 1/8 of an MOA what the exact number is.
Danny has been shooting F-Open for a few yrs now, I'm guessing here but the 3/4 to 7/8 he posted may be what he uses for his 7mm guns and again I'm going to venture a guess that he's running about a 1:8. I haven't run the calcs, but it may explain the difference. In my experience Danny's advice is usually pretty good.
Danny has been shooting F-Open for a few yrs now, I'm guessing here but the 3/4 to 7/8 he posted may be what he uses for his 7mm guns and again I'm going to venture a guess that he's running about a 1:8. I haven't run the calcs, but it may explain the difference. In my experience Danny's advice is usually pretty good.
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