• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Why the big 20s?

20s are by nature a varmint round, so anything that is a barrel burner is going to have limited utility.

I love my 20 Practicals. They are fun. But they don't throw dogs like bigger rounds. Honestly not a ton of difference from the 22s with 53gr bullets, but even a 6x45 is a real step up in visual performance.

If I'm really going to hot-rod I think I'd move beyond 20cal. Really enjoyed my 22ARC this past season.
 
I have a 20-250 that is a coyotes worst nightmare. I shoot custom 48 and 50 grain bullets. On occasion I have used it to show off at long range prairie dogs but I would not use it for heavy action on close prairie dogs.
 
. Nobody i know who has built a " Big" 20 cal did to shoot 100-300 yards.
Well said Sherm. Why would anyone build a large capacity .20 to shoot at the shorter ranges when there are numerous small case .20's that accomplish the same thing. Some of those (.204, .20 Bobcat, .20 Duster, .20 JI, .20/.222, etc.) can do it routinely to 500 yds based on the .223 bf. I'm talking PD's and Sage Rats though. Coyiotes are different critter, and the big case 20's are fine as those guys aren't necessarily concerned about barrel life.

Out in the squirrel fields barrel life is important to me. I could and did go through a .20BR barrel in a season or less. A 1000 rds was good (the .20/250 was worse). In comparison my .20 Minks will go 8-10,0000 rds. I guess it's what you do with a .20 that makes the difference in how one feels in the comparison of a big case .20 to a .223 bf .20. Both have there place.
 
There is alot of different 20's, I have 5 different 20 caliber cartridges depending on the intended target that day depends on what I pull out of the safe.
 
I am struggling to understand a lots of things about our sport and this brave new world.

When it comes to the 20 something caliber group, I am hard pressed to understand why the 222 / 223 Rem and 22 250 cannot cover 99.99% of all varmint and predator centerfire hunting needs.

However, for some, they like to experiment with different calibers and wildcats and that's fine if that is your thing. I mean it's a hobby so if that "floats your boat" then so be it. There are not any rules that I am aware of, at least not yet. ;)
 
There is alot of different 20's, I have 5 different 20 caliber cartridges depending on the intended target that day depends on what I pull out of the safe.
I only have 2 -20 cal cartridges ….both do everything better than the 22 cal’s I have..& looking promising to compare to my 6mm… with less drift and drop.. using same the powder charges
 
When it comes to the 20 something caliber group, I am hard pressed to understand why the 222 / 223 Rem and 22 250 cannot cover 99.99% of all varmint and predator centerfire hunting needs.
This isn't wrong... but some of us got that out of our system long ago.

When I was young and had to watch the play-budget because I was raising kids, I had to consider the costs of everything I did, including brass and bullets.

Once I got to where nobody was dependent on me, I realized life was short and I waited too long to try the 204 Ruger. Once I did the switch to 204, I regretted not doing it sooner.

For launching a 40 VMax in 223 versus a 40 VMax in 204, there is a good reason to spend the little extra effort to gather the 204 brass and burn just a little more powder. By the time I account for the whole sport, I can't find that difference with a scanning electron microscope if I am being honest with the math.

Don't get me wrong, I still haul the 223 gear with me since I can always count on some rookie's gear not working right when we are 1500 miles away from a fix. But if they try my 20 cal rigs while I am working on their junk, the next thing you know they want to switch to my 20 cal stuff and I get stuck shooting 223.

If you are a young person and you are not a trust fund baby with a butler who cleans your guns and loads your ammo.... then yes the cheaper answer is set of 223 rigs for the shorter shots and a 22-250 for the long ones. However, if you ever try a 204 rig right next to a 223 rig... don't blame me for what happens next. YMMV
 
They are lasers and fur friendly but completely impractical to me. I don’t care anything about a rifle that won’t shoot .250 with regularity, and with 500 rounds of barrel life on a giant 20, regular is out of the question. I can see myself chasing seating depth into the abyss.
I would toast one of those barrels on one good day of shooting.
 
I am struggling to understand a lots of things about our sport and this brave new world.

When it comes to the 20 something caliber group, I am hard pressed to understand why the 222 / 223 Rem and 22 250 cannot cover 99.99% of all varmint and predator centerfire hunting needs.

However, for some, they like to experiment with different calibers and wildcats and that's fine if that is your thing. I mean it's a hobby so if that "floats your boat" then so be it. There are not any rules that I am aware of, at least not yet. ;)
Simply put, you are 100% right. But when one gets to critter-specific needs, a .20 Practical will out-do the .223 all day long on the small critters and a 22/250 is just plain impractical. I'd toast a barrel on a 22/250 in short order - if I could get past trying to see my hits. I shoot my .223's about the same amount as my .20 Practicals - so I love them too - but one can spend far less time having to "range" everything within 300 yards with the Practical. If I could only have one varmint rig - it would be a .223. Thankfully - I can have more.
 
Oh I could to if I wanted to, but mine comes out for just a couple reasons thats why I built it. I also built my other 20's for high volume.
 
20s are by nature a varmint round, so anything that is a barrel burner is going to have limited utility.

I love my 20 Practicals. They are fun. But they don't throw dogs like bigger rounds. Honestly not a ton of difference from the 22s with 53gr bullets, but even a 6x45 is a real step up in visual performance.

If I'm really going to hot-rod I think I'd move beyond 20cal. Really enjoyed my 22ARC this past season.
That's where my head was at. The nearest PD town is a 17 hr drive (straight through) for me, so I normally only make 1 trip (3 days of shooting over a long weekend) per year. My conclusion has been that if you're planning on shooting past 500 yds, a barrel burner will increase your hit ratio. The main question is how you prioritize trajectory, drift, and recoil relative to each other.

As far as big 20s go, I was thinking 20ppc and up. From my limited research, it sounds like barrel life is 1,500 rounds or less (most likely >1k). I know barrels are consumables, but that number could be reached in 4 or 5 weekends, and I imagine that a lot of people running these cartridges are spending more time at it than me. My other assumption is that something like a 22-250 or 22CM is going to be cheaper to feed in both brass and bullets. I also recognize that not everyone is on the same budget that I'm on (1 teen started driving this year, the other is in 8th grade). Ultimately, I'm day dreaming about a nice bolt gun for reaching "out there" (past where I want to shoot a 223 or 20 prac). For me, it's one thing to spend $400 on a new barrel every few years. It's another thing entirely to send an extra quarter screaming across the prairie at +3600 fps every time I pull the trigger. The quarters end up stacking up a lot faster than the Benjamins do. Being able to spot for yourself does have its benefits though...
 
I can clarify the conversation regarding what role the big 20's serve.

For general purposes we'll assume a bullet heavier than 40 grains is being used. The 55 grain Berger is the most commonly utilized. For "big" let's start with powder capacity over 30 grains (obviously type of powder will figure into total capacity). Many folks land somewhere between the standard BR case and the 22-250 case. Let's also say the cartridge can safely fire the 55 Berger at least 3,600 FPS with the general consensus that 3,750 FPS many times becomes the sweet spot.

Now is this combination the flattest cartridge at longer distances? No. Does it have the least amount of wind drift? No again. Is the shooter likely to watch hits or misses through the scope? Absolutely and THAT'S the appeal of big 20's. Heavier recoiling cartridges cause the shooter to lose the eye box right about the time of bullet impact. I verified this by filming in super slo-mo my buddy touching off a 17 pound rifle in 6XC shooting 87 grain V-Max bullets.

As stated previously a big 20 has a limited barrel life. And what long-distance varmint round doesn't? A 20 Dasher has a similar expansion ratio to a 220 Swift. Great cartridge but few people use them at closer ranges with high rates of fire. And if they do rapid fire, yep, barrel life is gonna be short. Hotrods are what they are.

So if a person is content with losing sight of bullet impacts (whether or not they're aware it's happening) then by all means continue with what works. There's tons of ways to skin this cat.
 
Last edited:
Now is this combination the flattest cartridge at longer distances?
I agree with what Tommie is saying but will add my comment on the trajectory part of it.

Tommie isn't wrong, there are a few examples of a flatter trajectory, but coming up with one for prairie dog example isn't easy.

When we are out past 600 yards and willing to go to 1000, the 55 Berger doing 3750 fps is way up on the list of flattest trajectories compared to most cartridges and only surpassed by ones with a lot more recoil, cost per shot, and effort. Not the kinds of examples you would typically run on a small critter like a prairie dog, but at the same time there is nothing typical about popping prairie dogs out past 600 yards.

After all, the hit probability for a single uncorrected shot on an adult prairie dog at 1000 yards is not very high and it gets worse fast with any variability in wind.

Before I turn my sights on a mound at 1000 yards, I usually take my wind readings and test the wind call at say 600 or so. This gives me a pretty good idea of what else is going on due to unseen variations and terrain that affects the wind call to at least that shot, plus it warms up the gun.

If the gun has been "warmed up" in a similar direction and you have a chance to dope the winds, then the odds tend to shift towards the accuracy of the range call. If that warm-up shot is on the order of 600 yards and you have some experience with wind calls, you can shift out to 1000 yards with a much higher probability of an uncorrected hit since you narrowed down your wind tolerance.

So to Tommie's point... Are there other cartridges/bullets with a flatter trajectory, yes but most folks would be hard pressed to name them.

Real world bullets that are used for civilian sporting purposes are made of materials with densities we are all familiar with, namely lead based. Air being what it is, if you charted all the higher BC bullets you would find the 55 Berger is what we would call a "Corner Case". That means on a two axis performance chart that includes the bullet mass and the BC, there are not many production bullets that surpass it at the speeds we would call typical for the caliber.

I'll post a side-by-side of my 22CM with a Berger 90 VLD next to the wildcat using the Berger 55 to illustrate. You can see the 90 VLD has an amazing BC, and given a good load in a 22 CM you can send it at over 3000 fps. However, it still takes 28% more elevation (23.07/17.96) if we give both guns an equal 100 yard zero. To be fair, 22 CM arrives with more energy and requires less windage (5.91/7.08).

Let me know your favorite bullet/load. If your favorite bullet is in the Applied Ballistics database, just list out your details and I will be happy to crunch the numbers to see how they compare, time permitting... YMMV

1733609434210.png
 
I added the remarks from post #12 where Lefty2506 shows a 22 CM with a 75 ELD going 3450.

It sounds like a pretty stout load but here it is at face value for the speed.
I don't know what powder is assumed, so I had to guess at least 44 grains for recoil purposes.
I don't step on my loads because it can be 70's on one day, and 100 the next...
I wonder if the pressure is redline?

It comes very close to the 55 Berger in elevation.

1733612206563.png
 
I added the remarks from post #12 where Lefty2506 shows a 22 CM with a 75 ELD going 3450.

It sounds like a pretty stout load but here it is at face value for the speed.
I don't know what powder is assumed, so I had to guess at least 44 grains for recoil purposes.
I don't step on my loads because it can be 70's on one day, and 100 the next...
I wonder if the pressure is redline?

It comes very close to the 55 Berger in elevation.

View attachment 1612218
Super interesting data. Thanks! Definitely demonstrates why time of flight is critical.
 
I really do enjoy my one and only 20 cal. 55gr bergers at 3450 fps fireforming loads. The Grendel case will definitely help in the long run on the best of both worlds of speed and barrel life. Almost want a 20GT but don't think I will.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,795
Messages
2,203,587
Members
79,130
Latest member
Jsawyer09
Back
Top