Why Has the Manatee 1000 yard Gong Shoot Never Been "Cleaned"?
- Thread starter CaptainMal
- Start date
carlsbad
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
But does the wind build in during the match? It's that 15-45 minutes when the wind is maybe there, maybe not, that kills a clean match. today at our monthly steel varmint shoot scores were terrible and wind never got above 5mph. 107 grain limit exacerbates wind. In my 5 groups of 10 I shot 10, 9, 5, 10, 9. The 5 was just as the wind was building in. Distance for that round was 600 yards. No matter what I guessed I was wrong. It even momentarily reversed. As you can see, after it built in it was easy to adjust for. I got 2nd behind a guy who has been shooting there for 20 years and knows the wind just a little bit better. He shot 45.
--Jerry
Nasty is yet to come . Next month the rains start Temp will be above a hundred with the heat index . Grass. can't be mowed because of the water . By shooting time mirage gets so bad you can't even see the gongs .
Last year you couldn't get to gongs to shoot .
When it all said and done never has 15 got hit in competition . Larry
Tom,How can you even put your game face on sitting up there like a civilized human?
Tom
It's all there is to do
I could not get my AI, light gun under 9" a week or so ago. This was my last testing of f-class barrels. Will take them all off and "try" to have fun on the bench. Hope your AI is still humming along. Wish I was able to shoot with you guys and learn something. My bench skills really suck.
I would never use a good drill to make adjustments to a NF Comp
Would be afraid to break it, I mean the drill.Well, is there a consensus on the 3 things wrong with the set-up? I actually had fun yesterday, regardless of the outcome. We should all get out more and shoot just for fun. Everybody seems to be so serious.
Steve
carlsbad
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
I would never use a good drill to make adjustments to a NF Comp
Well, is there a consensus on the 3 things wrong with the set-up? I actually had fun yesterday, regardless of the outcome. We should all get out more and shoot just for fun. Everybody seems to be so serious.
Steve
No, there is not consensus. Do not throw the NF Comp under the bus. it is still a good scope. If you really feel that way, you didn't understand the testing. Although it is good to eliminate all errors, the measured errors were very small. --Jerry
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Wind and mirage conditions can change near each minute at Manatee. "Can" is not the correct word. Try "do".
Two weeks ago during the IBS style 1,000 paper match, I ran 5 tens in a row running the shots as conditions were right. Noticed a slight wind change but kept running. Two right two rings and then up came a little mirage. Three high the same distance.
I'm a rank (even using deodorant) amateur with little long-range competition experience. It's frustrating at times as so often, there's little positive feedback because of conditions. Long-range testing is also frustrating unless you just happen to be there during that "once in a blue moon" moment when conditions are stable. Really never been there for that but heard of it happening.
Two weeks ago during the IBS style 1,000 paper match, I ran 5 tens in a row running the shots as conditions were right. Noticed a slight wind change but kept running. Two right two rings and then up came a little mirage. Three high the same distance.
I'm a rank (even using deodorant) amateur with little long-range competition experience. It's frustrating at times as so often, there's little positive feedback because of conditions. Long-range testing is also frustrating unless you just happen to be there during that "once in a blue moon" moment when conditions are stable. Really never been there for that but heard of it happening.
They never have taken a smoke bomb down the valley With different winds.
All mirage How wrong they are .
Lol Larry
carlsbad
Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
Absolutely, and OBTW, many, if not most, of the small groups at 1000 yards were shot with NF Competition. I'm not saying the testing was insignificant. Just don't throw it under the bus. I bought a March. I didn't sell my NF. In fact, I shot it today in the match. I didn't blame a single miss on my scope.
Jerry
swed6.5
X1ON
Hi all, just to clarify, this thread started as a request or dare, to clean at 1K, not a equipment bash, with manatees wind, changes and swirls from the dirt berms make it tuff for anyone!
Also to clarify the 600yd gong match was cleaned by Alex, Erick,Joe and myself maybe many more, those cold bore shots after a 20+ minutes, and sometimes after it has been cleared of any paint and a strong mirage make it even tuff error to see. It is a great challenge and gets a few newbies hooked on long range, it got me to keep trying!
Great pics Larry!
Also to clarify the 600yd gong match was cleaned by Alex, Erick,Joe and myself maybe many more, those cold bore shots after a 20+ minutes, and sometimes after it has been cleared of any paint and a strong mirage make it even tuff error to see. It is a great challenge and gets a few newbies hooked on long range, it got me to keep trying!
Great pics Larry!
Just for the record.
Alex never cleaned the 600 it was built after he left .
But I agree on the challenge . Larry
I have been shooting the Gong matches at the Manatee. For several years I have been shooting the rimfire games. While traveling to different ranges, I learned real quick that standing water, and side berms, like for different distances, can make shooting really tough. The Manatee has lots of different berms to contend with, and standing water. No clean air as I call it. While sighting in early morning conditions, things look real promising. After a cold line period for others to set up targets, paint plates etc, everything changes real fast. The winds pick up and the mirage gets as bad as I have ever seen. Lots of swirling winds, and a mirage that makes hit consistency almost impossible. The Manatee has a very tough 1000 yard range. To shoot it you have to shoot through a narrow area to get to your target. The close side berms from 600 to 1000 cause swirling winds, and standing water ( horrible mirage) makes this as tough as it gets. Doug
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Often think that the 600 yard gong at Manatee would be just as difficult as the targets are smaller. That is not the case as it has been cleaned more than a few times. One shoot-off there went over 30 consecutive shots. Heck, think I cleaned it with three different rifles. Why the 600 is easier is probably related to that last 400 yard slot to the 1,000. Doug's comments above and other recent ones are relevant. SavageShooter taught me that if the wind just shifts to a certain angle back there, lets say wind blows from right to left, it pushes the bullet right - into the wind as it falls to the target. Hard to believe but there must be a wind angle that rolls over one side bern, hits the other and blows back the opposite direction.
Not logical? Have seen the results a few times. Unreal how that swirling and mirage work both together and opposite. During that last shoot-off I had to drop power down to about 32X just to get a clear look at both light mirage and target. During that short string I saw the mirage slow along with the wind at my last shot. Moved in and up 1/2 moa to make a last perfect centered hit. Guessed right or plain luck.
Someone is going to make a series of lucky/skilled guesses. They will probably be using a larger caliber that does better in the air movement than the 6mm's. They will still have to deal with the mirage and how wind shifts move the target image. Unless you are there often to see it, no writing about the problems will make it understandable.
The Manatee 1000 has been humbling, an education and an experience for precision shooters.
Not logical? Have seen the results a few times. Unreal how that swirling and mirage work both together and opposite. During that last shoot-off I had to drop power down to about 32X just to get a clear look at both light mirage and target. During that short string I saw the mirage slow along with the wind at my last shot. Moved in and up 1/2 moa to make a last perfect centered hit. Guessed right or plain luck.
Someone is going to make a series of lucky/skilled guesses. They will probably be using a larger caliber that does better in the air movement than the 6mm's. They will still have to deal with the mirage and how wind shifts move the target image. Unless you are there often to see it, no writing about the problems will make it understandable.
The Manatee 1000 has been humbling, an education and an experience for precision shooters.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Another agreement. A dirt hit can be difficult to judge and sometimes, impossible to see. Plotted target hits would be wonderful. Manatee has no pits, electronic targets or cameras to see. Target shooting is blind shooting with no feedback until after the match. Maybe in the future that will change. Steve has ideas.
At least with a gong you can usually get some kind of instant feedback on your hits and have the time to make a decision for the next shot. If your rifle shoots well and you see movement across the target, even an inch or two, you can make adjustments in your sighting. As you say, the miss and dirt movement just makes adjustment difficult.
Of course, if the dirt moves, you missed and now the "clean" has to wait for another time.
Appreciate your input.
At least with a gong you can usually get some kind of instant feedback on your hits and have the time to make a decision for the next shot. If your rifle shoots well and you see movement across the target, even an inch or two, you can make adjustments in your sighting. As you say, the miss and dirt movement just makes adjustment difficult.
Of course, if the dirt moves, you missed and now the "clean" has to wait for another time.
Appreciate your input.
Like many others I still find it still a challenge to clean at 600 yards on the 5" steel. Have done it a few times, but nothing like the 40+ string we saw Alex shoot at 575 yards before he moved to big sky country. He just got bored hitting it I and many have run more than 15 in practice at 1000 yards, but that is solely due to not having the 15 to 20 minute wait between 5 shot strings in competition. To say nothing of the peer group pressure during a match. Like all the guys that come to me saying that they shoot 3 to 4" groups at 1000 yards "in practice" and 10" in competition. It really does take extreme dedication by some to be able to do it in a competitive environment. I am sure not one of them. There are several that post here. Those are the guys we should all to listen to.
Larry may have started this thread due to our conversation Saturday about shooting a 15/15. My best was 13/15 with a Dasher, Larry said that was his best also, but he still had a chance to get 14 Saturday.
___________________________________________________________________
Regarding my "bashing" NF scopes, it is just a bit of fun following Alex's testing. Man, why are people so defensive about a piece of equipment? It either works the way it should or it does not. Testing is the only way to find out. I have 2 NF Comps and think the glass is first rate, just have my suspicions about one of them holding zero. There are too many shooters that I respect reporting similar potential problems, to not at least give a listen. I now also have 3 Marches that will be used in all future competition. My NF BR used to be my go to scope I used as a reference if I think I was having a problem.
_______________________________________________________________________
Need help moving our 600 yard IBS target stands to the BR range. At the same time am thinking we should move our 600 yard steel shoot down to the BR range also. One full hard days work for 3 or 4 guys for sure. Asking for help. I think I can get the club to provide all materials. I will provide lunch and beverages. Steve
I and many have run more than 15 in practice at 1000 yards, but that is solely due to not having the 15 to 20 minute wait between 5 shot strings in competition. To say nothing of the peer group pressure during a match. Like all the guys that come to me saying that they shoot 3 to 4" groups at 1000 yards "in practice" and 10" in competition. It really does take extreme dedication by some to be able to do it in a competitive environment. I am sure not one of them. There are several that post here. Those are the guys we should all to listen to.Larry may have started this thread due to our conversation Saturday about shooting a 15/15. My best was 13/15 with a Dasher, Larry said that was his best also, but he still had a chance to get 14 Saturday.
___________________________________________________________________
Regarding my "bashing" NF scopes, it is just a bit of fun following Alex's testing. Man, why are people so defensive about a piece of equipment? It either works the way it should or it does not. Testing is the only way to find out. I have 2 NF Comps and think the glass is first rate, just have my suspicions about one of them holding zero. There are too many shooters that I respect reporting similar potential problems, to not at least give a listen. I now also have 3 Marches that will be used in all future competition. My NF BR used to be my go to scope I used as a reference if I think I was having a problem.
_______________________________________________________________________
Need help moving our 600 yard IBS target stands to the BR range. At the same time am thinking we should move our 600 yard steel shoot down to the BR range also. One full hard days work for 3 or 4 guys for sure. Asking for help. I think I can get the club to provide all materials. I will provide lunch and beverages. Steve
Air density and low evelation is a problem that gets over looked . Our bullets come out the muzzle at 3000 fps And hit the wall of dence air . Between winter and summer you can get 15fps at 100 yards .
I can tell you much of the vertical you get at 1000 isn't all mirage It is air density.
Best was to describe it your shooting through 4 or more saunas .
Smoke test has showed me many of times .
The reason I usaly shoot well is range knowledge . It isn't my ability .
I can't tell how many of new shooter I have taken to the range and had them finish in the top 3 With my guns because they don't pay any attention to the conditions .
The secret is to know the shooters and watch wher their bullets are going And correct off of them . If their bullet is going a foot high and 18" left trust me yours will do the same .
Never have I shot in 12 years we haven got that much Change from practice to finishing the match . The gongs are at 1012 to 1018 yard not 1000 .
I can't tell how many of shooter that has had 10 hits in 10 shots to end only hitting one in the last 5 .
All I got to say is put your big boy pants on and come to manatee and show us .
The shoot is the first Saturday of every month . Crying towell is in the club house .
lol Larry
I can tell you much of the vertical you get at 1000 isn't all mirage It is air density.
Best was to describe it your shooting through 4 or more saunas .
Smoke test has showed me many of times .
The reason I usaly shoot well is range knowledge . It isn't my ability .
I can't tell how many of new shooter I have taken to the range and had them finish in the top 3 With my guns because they don't pay any attention to the conditions .
The secret is to know the shooters and watch wher their bullets are going And correct off of them . If their bullet is going a foot high and 18" left trust me yours will do the same .
Never have I shot in 12 years we haven got that much Change from practice to finishing the match . The gongs are at 1012 to 1018 yard not 1000 .
I can't tell how many of shooter that has had 10 hits in 10 shots to end only hitting one in the last 5 .
All I got to say is put your big boy pants on and come to manatee and show us .
The shoot is the first Saturday of every month . Crying towell is in the club house .
lol Larry
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
Reported
SteveLike many others I still find it still a challenge to clean at 600 yards on the 5" steel. Have done it a few times, but nothing like the 40+ string we saw Alex shoot at 575 yards before he moved to big sky country. He just got bored hitting it
Larry may have started this thread due to our conversation Saturday about shooting a 15/15. My best was 13/15 with a Dasher, Larry said that was his best also, but he still had a chance to get 14 Saturday.
___________________________________________________________________
Regarding my "bashing" NF scopes, it is just a bit of fun following Alex's testing. Man, why are people so defensive about a piece of equipment? It either works the way it should or it does not. Testing is the only way to find out. I have 2 NF Comps and think the glass is first rate, just have my suspicions about one of them holding zero. There are too many shooters that I respect reporting similar potential problems, to not at least give a listen. I now also have 3 Marches that will be used in all future competition. My NF BR used to be my go to scope I used as a reference if I think I was having a problem.
_______________________________________________________________________
Need help moving our 600 yard IBS target stands to the BR range. At the same time am thinking we should move our 600 yard steel shoot down to the BR range also. One full hard days work for 3 or 4 guys for sure. Asking for help. I think I can get the club to provide all materials. I will provide lunch and beverages. Steve
SteveLike many others I still find it still a challenge to clean at 600 yards on the 5" steel. Have done it a few times, but nothing like the 40+ string we saw Alex shoot at 575 yards before he moved to big sky country. He just got bored hitting it
Larry may have started this thread due to our conversation Saturday about shooting a 15/15. My best was 13/15 with a Dasher, Larry said that was his best also, but he still had a chance to get 14 Saturday.
___________________________________________________________________
Regarding my "bashing" NF scopes, it is just a bit of fun following Alex's testing. Man, why are people so defensive about a piece of equipment? It either works the way it should or it does not. Testing is the only way to find out. I have 2 NF Comps and think the glass is first rate, just have my suspicions about one of them holding zero. There are too many shooters that I respect reporting similar potential problems, to not at least give a listen. I now also have 3 Marches that will be used in all future competition. My NF BR used to be my go to scope I used as a reference if I think I was having a problem.
_______________________________________________________________________
Need help moving our 600 yard IBS target stands to the BR range. At the same time am thinking we should move our 600 yard steel shoot down to the BR range also. One full hard days work for 3 or 4 guys for sure. Asking for help. I think I can get the club to provide all materials. I will provide lunch and beverages. Steve
Cory and I will come I like the idea
I would like to shoot paper and Gongs on the same day. . Many of out of town shooters feel the same way .
Mabey we could start the event at 8 am and have both shoots done by 11 . No reason for us not to start the paper set up at 7am .
With the range being separated from the main target frames the night before .
I would like to see some near records or records set at manatee . Larry
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.