Why doesn't Hornady make match grade bullets capable of competing with Berger bullets?

[davidjoe]

I have extensive experience with the 190 A-tips compared to 180/184 Berger hybrids. The A-tip is hands down (including custom bullets I have shot) has the most consistent intra/inter lot dimensions of any bullet I have measured. Unbelievably consistent. The BC is phenomenal! However, It was difficult to shoot a clean at 1000yds due to a bastard child vertical 9 popping up in most 20 shot matches. They have a significant advantage in windy conditions compared to the commonly used 180/184/215 hybrid when only considering wind call errors. It was the consistently high vertical dispersion that made them unable to consistently win F-class matches, in my experience. After 5 barrels of testing/competing with the 190 A-tips I gave up. At the time they were significantly more expensive than the Berger 180/184 but I still believed I could find that right combination...to no avail. I am not alone in that F-class endeavour.

I would consider Hornady’s once-in-forever 250’s to be an epic personal failure and de facto reduction of my IQ by 100 points, IF I do not resolve this riddle.

It’s not a siren song, it’s a personal taunt and double dog dare. Like you say of the 190’s consistency, it’s also true of the 250’s, but instead of flyers, there are fragility issues. That means to my caveman brain, solve blowups and see if Kong doesn’t emerge on the shore from the Grand Island foggy mist!

I have new slower twist shorter barrels. Yesterday at the range getting the first dozen rounds down at 600.

 

[Tangent]

I would consider Hornady’s once-in-forever 250’s to be an epic personal failure and de facto reduction of my IQ by 100 points, IF I do not resolve this riddle.

It’s not a siren song, it’s a personal taunt and double dog dare. Like you say of the 190’s consistency, it’s also true of the 250’s, but instead of flyers, there are fragility issues. That means to my caveman brain, solve blowups and see if Kong doesn’t emerge on the shore from the Grand Island foggy mist!

I have new slower twist shorter barrels. Yesterday at the range getting the first dozen rounds down at 600.

Have you tried different rifling types to see if that makes a difference?

 

[davidjoe]

Have you tried different rifling types to see if that makes a difference?

All of them 5-R, so far. The first 8 of them are 8 twist Bartleins, but these second two are 8.5 twist Krieger. 8.5 is the minimum specified. It may also be the “maximum”,

I’ve run HBN and applied alcohol spray during the string to the barrels. Still a risky bullet to shoot in a big match but it’s also the only one that has yielded a very good match score for me, in recent times.

 

[Sandstorm]

David I hope you hit the right combination this time. Its a barrel issue and perhaps
it will pay off this time. Unknown territory for sure.

 

[Belly Benchrester]

Hornadys A tip might be the only bullet that good for target but it’s more expensive than Berger’s so really no reason to shoot ‘em

 

[rardoin]

Hornadys A tip might be the only bullet that good for target but it’s more expensive than Berger’s so really no reason to shoot ‘em

If I could get the 190's to have predictable vertical dispersion comparable with the 180/184 Berger hybrid, I definitely would have a very good reason to use them. I and another fellow competitor both had a barrel that shot the 190's very well with the exceptions of higher vertical than desired. When the winds got really wicked those bullets really stood out. Two matches in particular proved the superior BC advantage afforded by the A tip- One was a team match that I shot during the passage of a hurricane east of the range where we were in tropical storm conditions. I dropped less than half the points of anyone else on that relay including my team mates(I did have a very good wind coach, that is for certain). The other match was shot in Phoenix in wicked winds of a frontal passage during a regional match the year the SWN's were cancelled due to COVID. My friend mopped the floor with A tips in F-open. Neither of us had another barrel that shot them well enough to use them. We are both back to shooting Bergers.

 

[Sandstorm]

What twist was this barrel you were using for the 190s and was it a Shehane or Sherman Robin ?

. Neither of us had another barrel

John

 

[rardoin]

What twist was this barrel you were using for the 190s and was it a Shehane or Sherman Robin ?

John

Sherman Short mag/5r Bartlein 8.25tw. I've tried another two 8.25tw/5r, an 8tw/52 and a Schneider 8.3? tw.....snake eyes. As I have mentioned in the past, that one barrel also really liked Berger 190 hybrids also (freak of nature, I know!). My current barrel was broken in with 190 hybrids and they shot VERY well at 100yds for over 95 shots with a randomly chosen load of N165/hard jam (also FF new brass). My father was with me and had that look on his face as he saw the target. I told him there was NFW I was going to take that bait again. LOL.

 

[Hohn]

There’s plenty of market for it, Berger and other custom bullets can’t come close to keeping up!…. Hornaday doesn’t have the equipment nor knowledge to make them besides they have a large part of the market for other disciplines and needs and they do well in that market.
Wayne

I don’t know, I think it probably takes some good equipment and knowledge to make A-tips do so well in ELR.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Hornady's A-Tip Match Bullet Claims New Record

A relative newcomer to setting records, Hornady's A-Tip Match bullet, debuted in 2019, now holds three of the longest impacts recorded in competition history.

www.americanrifleman.org

 

[Sandstorm]

Thats why everyone shoots the 180s and call it a day. Yea

 

[rardoin]

I don’t know, I think it probably takes some good equipment and knowledge to make A-tips do so well in ELR.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Hornady's A-Tip Match Bullet Claims New Record

A relative newcomer to setting records, Hornady's A-Tip Match bullet, debuted in 2019, now holds three of the longest impacts recorded in competition history.

www.americanrifleman.org

Different game than F-class. I could seen them doing well at ELR due to the incredible BC. Much better minds than me with the best of the best rifles have had the same results in F-class.

 

[Hohn]

Different game than F-class. I could seen them doing well at ELR due to the incredible BC. Much better minds than me with the best of the best rifles have had the same results in F-class.

If they weren’t VERY consistent bullets, there’s no way you’d be able to ever walk in anything at 4300y. There’s just not enough BC on earth to overcome a bullet with any significant inconsistency in BC or weight at the distances involved.

EDIT: I see people posting their A tip experiences. It seems to me that the bullets themselves show Hornady is absolutely capable in tools and knowledge, even if for some inexplicable reason they seem harder to get to shoot.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

The best thing that could ever happen to individual reloading market would be if Hornady took pity on us all and purchased a manufacturing facility for primers. Because I have a feeling that very shortly, there won't be any more coming from Vista. While I'm not a prophet, considering who has controlling ownership of Vista outdoors, I would say this was the next obvious move. A complete abandonment of supplying the reloading market.

So, let's hope that Hornady decides to expand its operations because frankly, they are one of the only companies that has not almost completely abandoned its customers.

I think on their podcast they said they intend to expand their primer production enough to sell to reloaders.

 

[rardoin]

If they weren’t VERY consistent bullets, there’s no way you’d be able to ever walk in anything at 4300y. There’s just not enough BC on earth to overcome a bullet with any significant inconsistency in BC or weight at the distances involved.

EDIT: I see people posting their A tip experiences. It seems to me that the bullets themselves show Hornady is absolutely capable in tools and knowledge, even if for some inexplicable reason they seem harder to get to shoot.

Ok

 

[jelenko]

I think it's important to say which types of matches we mean.
For example, PRS and XTC don't have the same accuracy requirements as benchrest or even FClass.

 

[Kimber.204]

With the size and breadth of Hornady's research and production, why don't they produce match grade bullets that are capable of competing with Berger bullets? Like benchrest, F Class, world record class bullets.

Seems Hornady's engineers and ballisticians etc enjoy talking the talk, but they can't walk the walk.

Let's not even mention brass quality.

I've heard other folks ask this same question. There is not a simple answer.

1. What is Berger lacking that makes you want Hornady "Match" bullets? Why aren't we asking instead, why Berger can't make their bullets in larger quantities at lower prices - because I think that's the root of the OP's question.
2. Hornady and Berger have different business models and philosophy - and thank God they do. If there was a big enough market/need for the bullets Hornady would be making something for it. Most shooters are not Benchrest/F Class/ELR shooters. Local F-class matches around Pittsburgh that I have seen usually pull in less than a dozen shooters.
3. Most shooters at the ranges that I frequent don't shoot past 100yds. I have to drive a couple hours to shoot past 300yds. Even at 300yds the average shooter with a good load won't see the difference between a $40/box Hornady bullet and a $50/box Berger bullet.
4. Why do When Henry Ford created the Model T - (and more importantly to American Industrialization - shorter shift work and assembly lines) - his goal wasn't to create the fastest car. He wanted to create a car that everyone could afford. Today the F150 is usually identified as the most common vehicle in America - but that doesn't make it the best. And just because it's not the "best" or not the best for all applications doesn't mean it's not good or valuable. So, just because Hornady bullets may not be the most common bullet used in F-Class or ELR matches doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong. They just have different goals.

Full disclosure: I'm just a knuckle dragging XTC shooter both Service and Match rifle. In the last 10 years I've gone through many barrels worth of Hornady/Sierra/Berger/Nosler bullets. I typically practice with cheaper bullets - I don't seek out a specific brand, just whatever I can get a lot of at low prices. It usually ends up being a bulk box of Hornady from Graf's. For long line (600yds), I usually test a couple bullets for each new barrel - Hornady ELD-M, Berger Hybrids, Sierra SMK's.

I realize that a sling shooter laying in the dirt has different requirements than a benchrester or F Class shooter, so you can take my opinion for what it's worth.

Good Luck folks!
R

 

[davidjoe]

^ Except the A-Tips by Hornady. Here, Ford is making the F-150 and also the mid six figure GT track car.

The A-Tip line does something that is generally considered impossible, I’ll explain.

This is the Christmas tree reticle. It approximates greater drift in the wind, over greater drop by reason of longer distance. It works remarkably well.

I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction, on my 600 yard private target, that it also approximates greater wind drift when the distance doesn’t change, but the velocity does, by reason of lowering change weight for a given bullet, thus decreasing its velocity. Yes, it is indeed often a 45 degree angle of wind-drift-penalty to slow down, we will click, but sensitivity equaling that distance, is huge in what we do.

In fact, more than a decade ago, when I’d take a load 5 hours to the 1,000 monthly and strike a low 8 or 7 in sighter one, I knew I was in for a hell of poor score because I had much lower effective BC than I had anticipated, two minutes below the expected come ups will cost anyone points.

The A-Tip 190 will, simply put, turn the Christmas tree upside down in relation to 195’s, 180’s and 184’s. You can shoot the 190 such that it is going slower, takes longer to get to the target, hits the target lower, and yet drifts markedly LESS than competing bullets. It shoots upwind, going slower, - so imagine what it does in the wind when it is NOT going slower. Then imagine the .30 cal .878 BC 250, - there is no .338 that equals this, even Hornady’s own A-Tip.

All other bullets are basically clustered so tightly along the “weight to BC slope line” that you cannot see this effect, even if some of them technically do produce it. It is quite remarkable.

 

[6.5 forever]

I think on their podcast they said they intend to expand their primer production enough to sell to reloaders.

Every primer they make for their own ammo is one more available for reloaders.

 

[FireFoot]

Well, I'm pretty sure there are lots of Hornady bullets used in PRS, F Class and 'cross the course' matches to very good effect.

If by 'match grade' you mean 'benchrest', I'm not sure what Hornady thinks. But, if they've got a solid marketing group, they will know that their bullets are not used in benchrest.

Why would Hornady want to make benchrest bullets that no one will use? The vast majority of benchrest shooters use custom made bullets so there is no market for them to capture.

 

[FrankG]

Hornady's bullets are just as capable as any of these.

A few years ago US Army tested 26 different 6.5mm bullets. All our barrels. All testing was done at a 1k yards or 1200 yards. Forget which. Anyways in they're exact words... no bullet or brand flat out shot better than another. The ELDMs had no bullet failures etc... and shot just as good as any of the Bergers. Period. No Atips where around when that test was run.

If any of you are following the 7/6.5PRC testing thread that we made an ammunition pressure test barrel for.... I will state again right here.

When the 180 Bergers, 183SMK and the 190ATIPs where tested with the N555 powder.... the difference in accuracy between them was +/-.060". That doesn't mean anything. Neither bullet flat out shot better than the other. All 10 shot groups. No load tuning or seating depth adjustments where made etc... all bullets regardless of the bullets/or brand I seated them to .020" off the lands.

It basically comes down to bullet, powder and barrel. These three things have to work together and what it amounts to is tuning. Just because a given recipe doesn't shoot good doesn't mean the bullet is flat out bad or the barrel or powder is bad.... you just haven't found the load/tune for it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels