Long, drawn out discussion designed to highlight why member #61,489 is smarter than members 1 thru 61,487...?
Why Doc doesn't use the term annealed with cartridge cases
- Thread starter DocCarbon
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Long, drawn out discussion designed to highlight why member #61,489 is smarter than members 1 thru 61,487...?
Big_Daddy
Gold $$ Contributor
EXACTLY!!Exactly why does this matter. We all know what is meant when someone says they annealed their brass just like when someone says they center punched the target..... no they did not take a tool such as a punch but rather they hit it in the middle with a bullet fired from a gun
To be perfectly honest, I don't care why Doc doesn't use the term annealed....Sorry
I swear if the manufactures used the term Bricks on my invoices ,I'd have said Bricks too . One sales person at Federal reminded Me , Federal DIDN'T manufacture Bricks and told Me that was some other outfit perhaps run by a cement manufacturer .
NO matter what Doc says ,isn't gonna change a 100 years of reloading terminology , I just get Squeezed between the electron microscope and Granite instrument bases when the Lab men and Ladies beat on Me for incorrect terminology .
Most of us are lucky to be wearing pants by 7:30... I wouldn't worry too much about being brow beaten over using a term incorrectly, that everyone here apparently uses incorrectly....
At My age rarely does anything upset Me . Truth be-known a few shooters asked ME ,why I didn't use the term anneal . Should have replied I've forgotten , I didn't want everyone to go nuclear .
Someone asked Me once about Brass Monkeys and Shake a Leg , I made the mistake of telling them what they meant . Gezzus I'd have liked to never of heard the end of it . They Asked .
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
That's right, simply because when someone says they "annealed their brass" it means they annealed their brass (specifically the case necks) to reduce hardness and restore ductility. Not fully annealed, but annealed nonetheless.
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I believe the reference to reducing the brass 15-70% refers to the cartridge case forming process. That’s if you’re confusing it with neck turning/truing.
So don't use shooting terminology in the lab. And when you do and they don't like it, grow a pair and tell them to FO!
Xerothermic
Silver $$ Contributor
My only gripe is for every 6CM case made there is one less 6mm Remington case being made. A gripe or observation, if you will.
And, to the OP, malleable is too hard to pronounce.
This whole string just brought a smile to my old face. I won’t directly comment on what terminology is actually correct as that is irrelevant within confines of the audience who may actually participate in the subject activity.
But out of a nagging sense of curiosity I am interested to know who else here, besides myself is actually a Metallurgist by degree?
But out of a nagging sense of curiosity I am interested to know who else here, besides myself is actually a Metallurgist by degree?
Again, in this study, they are comparing the metallic structure of cartridge brass that is annealed at different temperatures, time, and when it was annealed in the process, AND if it was cold worked or not.
Doc,
May I refer you to the Glossary of Metallurgic Terms in your referenced article. Go to the "anneal" definition, third paragraph. Anneal is a term that describes a process. That process is different for ferrous and non-ferrous metals.
"Anneal" is a process, "malleable" is the end state.
Jim
Old Navy
Gold $$ Contributor
We actually had a couple at the aero space plant where I worked.
That's why I said I don't reduce my brass by 15-70%, and assuming most reloader don't either. As you, I believe they are referring to the case forming process.
Jim
The effects of annealing at temperatures below which recrystalliza-
tion takes place may also be detected in the stress-strain curve. If a
specimen of brass is elongated by applying a load in tension, the elon-
gation is characterized by a rapidly and continually rising stress-strain
curve. If the load is removed and immediately reapplied, the second
application of stress rises to and continues to rise beyond the point of
interruption of the first cycle of stress; however, if the specimen is
annealed at a temperature below the recrystallization temperature,
appreciable yielding begins at a low value. Thus, a portion of the
initial strain hardening has been lost at the temperature and time of
anneal, and yet no recrystallization has taken place. The effects of
recovery are also detected in decreasing spring back under the in-
fluence of both time and temperature. The phenomenon of "season
cracking" in brass is mitigated by a low temperature recovery anneal,
and this treatment is regularly applied in industry to prevent this phe-
nomenon in cartridge brass. The magnitude of macro stresses is con-
siderably decreased, as evidenced by the partial return of elastic
properties to a condition intermediate between the cold-worked con-
dition and the fully annealed condition and the decreased tendency to
crack with further working. A condition refered to as malleability or ductility .
Complete stress relief is not attained by recovery, but is attained
by recrystallization. The mechanism of the phenomenon of recovery is
not understood, and probably will not be understood until the proc-
esses involved in plastic deformation are better defined. Recovery un-
doubtedly affects the elastic properties through the partial elimination
of internal stresses. The partial elimination of internal stresses also
decreases the internal friction, the electrical resistance and the velocity
of solution in acids, but has little effect on the strength and ductility
properties. The resolution of the alpha doublet in X-ray reflections is
regained, at least in part, during recovery anneals at temperatures
below recrystallization.
The perfection of atom disposition on a space lattice is grossly
distorted during plastic deformation; the atomic planes become twisted
and distorted, and the atoms no longer occupy precision positions
on a space lattice but are distorted to positions less symmetrically
disposed. This distortion results in an increase in the internal energy
of the metal, and a somewhat localized distribution of the energy.
The partial stress removal during recovery is probably associated with
a partial rearrangement of the space lattice, straightening of slip
planes, and return of atoms to positions more closely approximating
the unstrained space lattice. These processes are brought about by the
influence of heat, which permits a greater thermal vibration of the
atoms with resultant diffusion or movement of atoms to satisfy par-
tially the trend toward returning to the stable condition. The influence
of heat, however, is not great enough to permit a complete rearrange-
ment of the atoms on the space lattice, and the complete relief of stress
is not obtained.
tion takes place may also be detected in the stress-strain curve. If a
specimen of brass is elongated by applying a load in tension, the elon-
gation is characterized by a rapidly and continually rising stress-strain
curve. If the load is removed and immediately reapplied, the second
application of stress rises to and continues to rise beyond the point of
interruption of the first cycle of stress; however, if the specimen is
annealed at a temperature below the recrystallization temperature,
appreciable yielding begins at a low value. Thus, a portion of the
initial strain hardening has been lost at the temperature and time of
anneal, and yet no recrystallization has taken place. The effects of
recovery are also detected in decreasing spring back under the in-
fluence of both time and temperature. The phenomenon of "season
cracking" in brass is mitigated by a low temperature recovery anneal,
and this treatment is regularly applied in industry to prevent this phe-
nomenon in cartridge brass. The magnitude of macro stresses is con-
siderably decreased, as evidenced by the partial return of elastic
properties to a condition intermediate between the cold-worked con-
dition and the fully annealed condition and the decreased tendency to
crack with further working. A condition refered to as malleability or ductility .
Complete stress relief is not attained by recovery, but is attained
by recrystallization. The mechanism of the phenomenon of recovery is
not understood, and probably will not be understood until the proc-
esses involved in plastic deformation are better defined. Recovery un-
doubtedly affects the elastic properties through the partial elimination
of internal stresses. The partial elimination of internal stresses also
decreases the internal friction, the electrical resistance and the velocity
of solution in acids, but has little effect on the strength and ductility
properties. The resolution of the alpha doublet in X-ray reflections is
regained, at least in part, during recovery anneals at temperatures
below recrystallization.
The perfection of atom disposition on a space lattice is grossly
distorted during plastic deformation; the atomic planes become twisted
and distorted, and the atoms no longer occupy precision positions
on a space lattice but are distorted to positions less symmetrically
disposed. This distortion results in an increase in the internal energy
of the metal, and a somewhat localized distribution of the energy.
The partial stress removal during recovery is probably associated with
a partial rearrangement of the space lattice, straightening of slip
planes, and return of atoms to positions more closely approximating
the unstrained space lattice. These processes are brought about by the
influence of heat, which permits a greater thermal vibration of the
atoms with resultant diffusion or movement of atoms to satisfy par-
tially the trend toward returning to the stable condition. The influence
of heat, however, is not great enough to permit a complete rearrange-
ment of the atoms on the space lattice, and the complete relief of stress
is not obtained.
ttfreestyle
Silver $$ Contributor
Has to be guffy...
gambleone
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes, I think you're right.
I studied metallurgy and material science and continue to use what was learned then, in my work today.
All I can say is this black box is amazing, and I am impressed at how well the Aztec feature works.
My wife however, is not impressed that this black box has been on her kitchen table for a year or so…
All I can say is this black box is amazing, and I am impressed at how well the Aztec feature works.
My wife however, is not impressed that this black box has been on her kitchen table for a year or so…
Attachments
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
For Gods sakes man......Buy her another house to put her kitchen table in..........
Troy I'm thinking he's alone and isolated while processing that 55 gallon drum of 30-06 brass he repurposed from tha salvage yard.
In the process his brain became
"Maluable" or analed to the rest of us.
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