• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Why Doc doesn't use the term annealed with cartridge cases

Exactly why does this matter. We all know what is meant when someone says they annealed their brass just like when someone says they center punched the target..... no they did not take a tool such as a punch but rather they hit it in the middle with a bullet fired from a gun;)
 
Exactly why does this matter. We all know what is meant when someone says they annealed their brass just like when someone says they center punched the target..... no they did not take a tool such as a punch but rather they hit it in the middle with a bullet fired from a gun;)
EXACTLY!!

To be perfectly honest, I don't care why Doc doesn't use the term annealed....Sorry
 
I remember when Doc instructed us on the proper terminology of primer packaging, sleeve, box, brick, carton, case….

I swear if the manufactures used the term Bricks on my invoices ,I'd have said Bricks too . One sales person at Federal reminded Me , Federal DIDN'T manufacture Bricks and told Me that was some other outfit perhaps run by a cement manufacturer .

NO matter what Doc says ,isn't gonna change a 100 years of reloading terminology , I just get Squeezed between the electron microscope and Granite instrument bases when the Lab men and Ladies beat on Me for incorrect terminology .
 
I just get Squeezed between the electron microscope and Granite instrument bases when the Lab men and Ladies beat on Me for incorrect terminology .

Most of us are lucky to be wearing pants by 7:30... I wouldn't worry too much about being brow beaten over using a term incorrectly, that everyone here apparently uses incorrectly....
 
Most of us are lucky to be wearing pants by 7:30... I wouldn't worry too much about being brow beaten over using a term incorrectly, that everyone here apparently uses incorrectly....

At My age rarely does anything upset Me . Truth be-known a few shooters asked ME ,why I didn't use the term anneal . Should have replied I've forgotten , I didn't want everyone to go nuclear .

Someone asked Me once about Brass Monkeys and Shake a Leg , I made the mistake of telling them what they meant . Gezzus I'd have liked to never of heard the end of it . They Asked .
 
We all know what is meant when someone says they annealed their brass
That's right, simply because when someone says they "annealed their brass" it means they annealed their brass (specifically the case necks) to reduce hardness and restore ductility. Not fully annealed, but annealed nonetheless.
-
 
What ever term you would like to use is fine with me. I really don't care.

I do have an opinion on your choice of reference material. The article is based on the thinning of cartridge brass from 15 to 70%, referred to as "cold worked" or "cold reductions". This process is done when the cartridge brass is formed in production, some times long before we (as reloaders) acquire it.

The study you referred to then "anneals" , their term, not mine, the cartridge brass to bring it back to a malleable state, and then lists the different times, temperatures and effects.

I can't speak for others, but I am not in the habit of reducing the thickness of my cartridge brass by 15 to 70%, so I am skeptical of the value of this study for my purposes.

But at least there wasn't any political agenda involved, and that's rare lately. And refreshing.

Jim
I believe the reference to reducing the brass 15-70% refers to the cartridge case forming process. That’s if you’re confusing it with neck turning/truing.
 
I swear if the manufactures used the term Bricks on my invoices ,I'd have said Bricks too . One sales person at Federal reminded Me , Federal DIDN'T manufacture Bricks and told Me that was some other outfit perhaps run by a cement manufacturer .

NO matter what Doc says ,isn't gonna change a 100 years of reloading terminology , I just get Squeezed between the electron microscope and Granite instrument bases when the Lab men and Ladies beat on Me for incorrect terminology .
So don't use shooting terminology in the lab. And when you do and they don't like it, grow a pair and tell them to FO!
 
I'm not sure if I stress relieve or anneal my 6 Creedmoor brass, I do know that if I abbreviate it as 6CM, people will come out of the woodwork to bitch about it.
My only gripe is for every 6CM case made there is one less 6mm Remington case being made. A gripe or observation, if you will. :)

And, to the OP, malleable is too hard to pronounce.
 
This whole string just brought a smile to my old face. I won’t directly comment on what terminology is actually correct as that is irrelevant within confines of the audience who may actually participate in the subject activity.

But out of a nagging sense of curiosity I am interested to know who else here, besides myself is actually a Metallurgist by degree?
 
It's akin to what Jackieschimdt said it's a Term universally misused . Annealing takes place when the recrystallization restructuring of metal occurs ,as in the Grains become uniformed and aligned .

In order for this to happen " ANNEALING " of Brass ,requires ; Figures 8a and b show a B&W and a color image (Klemm’s I reagent) after annealing 30 minutes at 1300°F which produced a fully recrystallized, uniform grain size distribution but coarse grained (as in Figs. 1 and 3a).

The Key is Temperature and TIME ,held at Temperature .**
Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F. Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes. Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.


Figures 7a and b illustrate the grain structure in color after 15 and 30 minutes at 900°F. The 15 minute hold produced a non-uniform grain structure while the 60 minute hold produced better results although the grain size distribution appears to be duplex. Figures 8a and b show a B&W and a color image (Klemm’s I reagent) after annealing 30 minutes at 1300°F which produced a fully recrystallized, uniform grain size distribution but coarse grained (as in Figs. 1 and 3a). Figures 8c and d show the same specimen but color tint etched using Klemm’s III and Beraha’s PbS tint etchants. Both are excellent for use with cartridge brass. Tint etchants also reveal details about the presence, or absence, of crystallographic texture. We note that as the cartridge brass is cold reduced greater amounts the grain coloring becomes more monotone, while when the annealing temperature is increased resulting in fully recrystallized grains with increasing size, the coloring becomes more variable with a random distribution of the colors. A random dispersion of a broad range of colors indicates that we have a random crystallographic texture while a narrow color range suggests that we have a preferred texture.


Vickers indents, 100 at a 100 gf load, were made on the original hot extruded and fully mill-annealed starting material and on the hot extruded, annealed and 50% cold reduced specimen and for similar 50% CR specimens that were annealed for 30 minutes at 500, 700, 800, 900 and 1300°F. Note that the distribution curves for the 50% CR specimen and the 50% CR specimen held at 500°F for 30 minutes are essentially identical, which is not surprising based on the image in Figure 5a which shows no influence of annealing at 500°F on the microstructure. As the annealing temperature increased from 700 to 1300°F, the HV distribution curves become more peaked and the hardness decreases. The distribution curve for the starting fully annealed specimen is the lowest in hardness as 30 minutes at 1300°F yielded slightly greater hardness. Figure 10 plots the mean Vickers hardness for each of the 50% CR specimens from the initial non-annealed condition (plotted at ambient temperature) versus the 30 minute hold at each annealing temperature from 500 to 1300°F.

** When Steel or other alloys requires annealing ,one doesn't simply pop it into a kiln and pop it out after it reaches a specific temperature ,it's HELD at Temp for a specific TIME ,in order to be FULLY annealed ./quote
Again, in this study, they are comparing the metallic structure of cartridge brass that is annealed at different temperatures, time, and when it was annealed in the process, AND if it was cold worked or not.
The Point of conversation was this is why I DON'T use the term . I've had My Butt chewed by metallurgist from the get go , for NOT being term specific with correct language . So I say malleable because that's in reality exactly what ALL reloaders are doing to their brass case necks & shoulders ,is undoing work hardening by quick heating and making them malleable again . Brass cups or pucks are drawn thus work hardening the entire case , the manufacturer then simply uses electrical induction so as to make necks malleable again . They DON'T anneal the Brass ,they misuse the term extensively and as Jackieschmidt pointed out 99.9 % know the intent .

Doc,

May I refer you to the Glossary of Metallurgic Terms in your referenced article. Go to the "anneal" definition, third paragraph. Anneal is a term that describes a process. That process is different for ferrous and non-ferrous metals.

"Anneal" is a process, "malleable" is the end state.

Jim
 
This whole string just brought a smile to my old face. I won’t directly comment on what terminology is actually correct as that is irrelevant within confines of the audience who may actually participate in the subject activity.

But out of a nagging sense of curiosity I am interested to know who else here, besides myself is actually a Metallurgist by degree?
We actually had a couple at the aero space plant where I worked.
 
I believe the reference to reducing the brass 15-70% refers to the cartridge case forming process. That’s if you’re confusing it with neck turning/truing.

That's why I said I don't reduce my brass by 15-70%, and assuming most reloader don't either. As you, I believe they are referring to the case forming process.

Jim
 
The effects of annealing at temperatures below which recrystalliza-
tion takes place may also be detected in the stress-strain curve. If a
specimen of brass is elongated by applying a load in tension, the elon-
gation is characterized by a rapidly and continually rising stress-strain
curve. If the load is removed and immediately reapplied, the second
application of stress rises to and continues to rise beyond the point of
interruption of the first cycle of stress; however, if the specimen is
annealed at a temperature below the recrystallization temperature,
appreciable yielding begins at a low value. Thus, a portion of the
initial strain hardening has been lost at the temperature and time of
anneal, and yet no recrystallization has taken place. The effects of
recovery are also detected in decreasing spring back under the in-
fluence of both time and temperature. The phenomenon of "season
cracking" in brass is mitigated by a low temperature recovery anneal,
and this treatment is regularly applied in industry to prevent this phe-
nomenon in cartridge brass. The magnitude of macro stresses is con-
siderably decreased, as evidenced by the partial return of elastic
properties to a condition intermediate between the cold-worked con-
dition and the fully annealed condition and the decreased tendency to
crack with further working. A condition refered to as malleability or ductility .
Complete stress relief is not attained by recovery, but is attained
by recrystallization. The mechanism of the phenomenon of recovery is
not understood, and probably will not be understood until the proc-
esses involved in plastic deformation are better defined. Recovery un-
doubtedly affects the elastic properties through the partial elimination
of internal stresses. The partial elimination of internal stresses also
decreases the internal friction, the electrical resistance and the velocity
of solution in acids, but has little effect on the strength and ductility
properties. The resolution of the alpha doublet in X-ray reflections is
regained, at least in part, during recovery anneals at temperatures
below recrystallization.
The perfection of atom disposition on a space lattice is grossly
distorted during plastic deformation; the atomic planes become twisted
and distorted, and the atoms no longer occupy precision positions
on a space lattice but are distorted to positions less symmetrically
disposed. This distortion results in an increase in the internal energy
of the metal, and a somewhat localized distribution of the energy.
The partial stress removal during recovery is probably associated with
a partial rearrangement of the space lattice, straightening of slip
planes, and return of atoms to positions more closely approximating
the unstrained space lattice. These processes are brought about by the
influence of heat, which permits a greater thermal vibration of the
atoms with resultant diffusion or movement of atoms to satisfy par-
tially the trend toward returning to the stable condition. The influence
of heat, however, is not great enough to permit a complete rearrange-
ment of the atoms on the space lattice, and the complete relief of stress
is not obtained.
 
I studied metallurgy and material science and continue to use what was learned then, in my work today.

All I can say is this black box is amazing, and I am impressed at how well the Aztec feature works.

My wife however, is not impressed that this black box has been on her kitchen table for a year or so…
 

Attachments

  • A7F028C1-0A62-4984-B45A-AD3613097F97.jpeg
    A7F028C1-0A62-4984-B45A-AD3613097F97.jpeg
    541.5 KB · Views: 19
I studied metallurgy and material science and continue to use what was learned then, in my work today.

All I can say is this black box is amazing, and I am impressed at how well the Aztec feature works.

My wife however, is not impressed that this black box has been on her kitchen table for a year or so…
For Gods sakes man......Buy her another house to put her kitchen table in..........
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,266
Messages
2,215,189
Members
79,506
Latest member
Hunt99elk
Back
Top