But the ammo specs, (case dimensions) were generated by Hornady. Now if it worked they must have followed them correctly.I agree however, I was not shooting Hornady factory ammo....
Why did Hornady make the 6.5 Creedmoor?
- Thread starter jkirk
- Start date
To annoy 80% of the shooting world
I shoot a 260, the CM is a great cartridge too, but I have no problem with it or Hornady. They marketed it well and have done well with its sales, just like any other business hopes its new products will.
Now all the guys in spandex camo with man buns drinking lattes claiming to kill mastodons at a half mile do annoy me. Tongue firmly in cheek.
Now all the guys in spandex camo with man buns drinking lattes claiming to kill mastodons at a half mile do annoy me. Tongue firmly in cheek.
I have a 6.5 x 55 so I never got a 260 or Creedmoor but the guy across the street got a 260 and we loaded some stuff. Nothing to complain about and he put meat on the table most years.
If memory serves when the 260 was being marketed the gun shops in my area were flooded with Swedes at $175 a piece. I paid $150 for mine.
It is not the best 6.5mm cartridge ever not even close.
The modern Hornady Proprietary Cartridge lines are examples of fantastic marketing from top to bottom and nothing more. It is text book worthy and I compliment them on how deep they have managed to get their hooks into what goes for journalism in the shooting world! Sadly anyone with an IQ above 73 can see through the marketing which is full of bad math, lies, half truth and the like!
To be clear I am not calling any of their cartridges bad they just do not do anything statically significant over the many non-proprietary cartridges that we already had on the market.
In some cases they solve a problem that did not exist before and did not need too much solving really. If talking about anything other than factory rifles and factory loaded ammo this is especially true.
You can not fault a company for attempting to maximize profits especially when no one is being harmed in any way by their actions! Hornady though will never get a penny of money though because they are intellectually dishonest with how they do business! I expect more from them than I would say Balenciaga!
I can still remember all the BS about how it ballistically outperformed the the 300WM at 1000 yards blah bla blah. They would compare loads that are in light of what we understand today Moron Apples vs Morron Oranges! Like comparing the 143gr. ELDX 6.5CM loading against a 150gr. Spitzer 300WM load. If you do not understand why this is intellectually dishonest and meant to purposefully mislead people than you are part of the problem! I might have the details wrong but it is close!
I just want companies that are not sleazy and manipulative. When a manufacture behaves like CNN and goes out of their way to mislead with out actually lying because of carefully crafted narrative and language it disappoints! It shows just how little they actually think of their customers and the product they are attempting to sell!
The COAL issue is more a problem of owners making poor choices in action lengths and cartridge and bullet combo's. You either think ahead and do not have those issues or you live with less then perfect ammo and rifle combo's. Plenty of winners in competitive shooting have been in that position and won. I dare say 99% of factory ammo falls into that category especialy hunting ammo! Nothing screams this more than Remington 7 owners trying to build the pan ultimate lite mountain rifle and finding out they could not shoot ELD heavies in a 260 Remington and feed from the magazine with out encroaching on powder capacity. They blamed the 260 Remington when the real problem was their own ignorance. Those heavy ELD/VLD 6.5mm bullets did not exist when the 260 Rem was designed and the Remington 7 is short even among short actions. When reality does not line up with expectations people like to point fingers at everyone and everything besides themselves!
In a rifle set up properly for what you want to do a 260 Remington has no issues at all with big heavy ELD/VLD bullets. This is again especially true if you are talking about a custom rifle and hand loaded ammo! Even in a worst case say you owned a Remington 7 or Savage short action and you where limited to factory hunting ammo on game performance would be identical to like weight hunting ammo in 6.5CM and external ballistics would be so close that only the most perceptive of hunters could perceive the difference in the field hunting under 600 yards. Since 99.999% of meat in the freezer comes from shots well under 600 yards for the vast majority of hunters in America it is a lot to do about nothing.
Keep in mind the 6.5CM was originally aimed at target shooters but funny how few target shooters are still using it. Likewise look that the 6.5PRC that has never been used for PRS shooting but is being targeted mostly at hunters. It is too much cartridge for it's original intended purpose and not enough cartridge for what people are trying to actual do with it! Yet it is selling like hot cakes on Sunday!
People on this site should be mindful of all the fantastic cartridges that have come before that work fantastic to this day and all the fantastic cartridges that most of the public have no clue about. It is not so much that one cartridge is better or worse than another but also about being informed and making intelligent well informed decision instead of just buying what other people tell you to buy!
Just because is still a fantastic reason to buy anything gun related including now cliche and mundane 6.5CM!
Exterior ballistics, ballistic coefficients, COAL, have to be the worst way to chose a cartridge or bullet if hunting is the goal. Action length is the worst way to chose a rifle for almost any purpose unless the purpose is to specifically fit a given cartridge!
This is a strawman argument if ever there was! Why does it need to fit into a short action? You can buy any length action you want?
On top of that there is no reason for a short action other than for short cartridges feeding and even those do not work well! The main selling point for the 6.5CM is that the 260 Remington with new modern heavy for caliber bullets create a COAL issue! If the action was not too short for the cartridge and bullet you want to shoot their is no problem.
If short actions where not so short than none of this would matter!
The fact that you know 3 men that sold their 300WM and went to 6.5CM for Elk just shows their ignorance it is not a mark of well informed reasoning! There is nothing about the 6.5CM that makes it more lethal on Elk than a properly setup 300WM. We can demonstrate that with math, ballistics gel, meat and carcauses. Next thing you will want us to believe is that if these 3 guys are shooting ELDX bullets on these Elk and that those are so much better than say a Nosler Partition.
Elk are easy to kill especially if you stalk in close and only take good shots. Get a decent lung shot and Elk usually lay down like a tired toddler. In fact if fact plenty of people have used 25-06, 243, 22-250, 257 Roberts to take Elk year after year in spite of how marginal those cartridges are for anything less than ideal shot placement.
This might shock a lot of people but the Hornady ELDX is such a garbage bullet that on actual medium game on up there is ZERO difference on game between the 6.5CMa nd the 6.5PRC. Now if you go to a tougher bullet like a Nosler or SPeer Grand Slam then there is a difference but not as much as you would think if you likewise load a tougher bullet into the 6.5CM.
The 6.5x55 Swede did not develop it's reputation as a game killing machine with ELD/VLD bullets that explode and fragment like a varmint bullet just the opposite. They had long heavy FMJ, Soft Points Spitzers. Even shooting the Hornady ELDX bullet into ballistics gel often causes them to almost explode with jacket separation and core lose.
There is nothing wrong with a 6.5mm bullet but you have to have a tough controlled expansion bullet if you want to have a really good hunting load in a 6.5mm!!! Even better if it is a spitzer nice flat base helps with penetration! Anyone that says otherwise either has a dog in the fight or is a liar. Once you put a good hunting bullet into the 6.5CM or the 6.5PRC it destroys most of it's marketing based on ballistic coefficient.
So a lot of the marketing around the Hornady cartridges are lie's of omission.
Since people have been taking Elk with 308 Win, 30-30Win, 45-70 the ability to drop an Elk is not really a selling point. Elk go down easier than a White Tail Deer if you get a good lung shot. Elk are hard to kill when they are 700+ yards away walking in high winds and your on the top of a mountain and they are in the valley or the other way around. They hard to kill with a bad quartering shot. Guys that are great stalkers and good at reading the wind seldom have issues dropping Elk almost on command!
If someone has the skill to humanely drop an Elk at 800+ yards they should be shooting a super powerful magnum with a seriously heavy bullet. Recoil should not even play into it for a grown man since at most you will be shooting 2 shots max! Elk hunting is not a 90 to 100 round day at a competition. Every hunters first shot is their best shot and a rushed 2nd shot because you did not do the job right the first time round is always going to be the most you will get. Again with only 2 shots a break should not even matter again 2 shots not 20, 40, 60, 90, 100.
We have never had it better and our ancestors ate well with fair less rifle and bullet selection than we have today. If someone is competent the trajectory should not matter that much again we decimated entire species with some slow heavy moving bullets with trajectories like a rainbow and primitive iron sights! In fact looking at the entire history of firearms and hunting big heavy bullets often moving at less than impressive velocities have consistently out performed lighter faster moving projectiles when it comes to killing in general.
When you look at 190gr.+ 300WM loads not only does the exterior ballistics match or exceed 140gr. 6.5mm loads the down range energy at 1000, 1200, 1500, 1800 yards is much much better than the lighter 6.5mm bullets. Just getting to the target does not mean much if you can not reliably kill what you are shooting at or if the animal get's away! Likewise shooting that far away gives predators more time to swoop in on your kill especially if the animal does run and you have to track it!
Because every single chassis, magazine and accessory I have is for short action stuff. I shoot 120 something grain bullets in my 6.5 guns, so the argument that some 147 or heavier bullets aren't ideal for a short action are lost on me.
If it doesn't fit in a short action, then it doesn't do everything the 260 can do, it's as simple as that.
It's OK, you can admit you were wrong without saying a valid argument is a 'straw man' argument.
Oh-Lordy!
This entire argument reminds me of my neighbor and his snow blower. He has a 60' x 25' driveway and a self propelled, 50" wide snow blower.
I stood there listening to him go on for quite awhile about this snow blower and all it could do, I finally ask him if he cleared his driveway with it or screwed it!
Gentlemen, they're just machines, enjoy them. I had a 6.5 x 55 so I bought no other 6.5 cartridge, if you see a need for a specific configuration build it.
If Hornady has made a commercial success of the Creedmoor designs, good for them. If you bought a Creedmoor and are happy, good for you.
I bought a 6MM ARC for my gas gun setup, I hope it's successful for Hornady as that benefits me in terms of supplies, I'm happy because I limited my expectations for the cartridge and therefore got what I bought.
I also built a custom 450 Marlin, it was not successful for Hornady or Marlin, I am happy because I limited my expectations and stocked ample supplies.
Moral of the story, be happy!
I stood there listening to him go on for quite awhile about this snow blower and all it could do, I finally ask him if he cleared his driveway with it or screwed it!
Gentlemen, they're just machines, enjoy them. I had a 6.5 x 55 so I bought no other 6.5 cartridge, if you see a need for a specific configuration build it.
If Hornady has made a commercial success of the Creedmoor designs, good for them. If you bought a Creedmoor and are happy, good for you.
I bought a 6MM ARC for my gas gun setup, I hope it's successful for Hornady as that benefits me in terms of supplies, I'm happy because I limited my expectations for the cartridge and therefore got what I bought.
I also built a custom 450 Marlin, it was not successful for Hornady or Marlin, I am happy because I limited my expectations and stocked ample supplies.
Moral of the story, be happy!
ronsatspokane
Gold $$ Contributor
Those three ignorant hunters you speak of have hunted game on just about every continent on earth. But I understand your concern and given your line of reasoning, you should dump the 300 win bag in favor of a 338 Lapua. Still not enough knockdown power, then 505 Gibbs is for you.
ronsatspokane
Gold $$ Contributor
And it worked. I can only repeat, the line of argument against 6.5 Creedmoor always ends up in the land of unicorn farts. "if", "when", "if only", "but". The land that never has existed and never will exist is the argument against the 6.5 Creedmoor. Arguing with the Creedmoor haters is like arguing with liberals.
I believe the Europeans have been shooting moose with 160's in the 6.5 x 55 Mauser for nearly 100 years. I wouldn't have any issue with it, within limited ranges.
A certain W.D. Bell said of brain shots on elephants.
"Again, the smallest bore rifles with cartridges of a modern military description, such as the .256, .275, .303 or .318, are quite sufficiently powerful for the brain shot. The advantages of these I need hardly enumerate, such as their cheapness, reliability, handiness, lightness, freedom from recoil, etc. For the brain shot only bullets with an unbroken metal envelope (i.e., solids) should be employed; and those showing good weight, moderate velocity, with a blunt or round-nosed point, are much better than the more modern high velocity sharp-pointed variety. They keep a truer course, and are not so liable to turn over as the latter."
"Again, the smallest bore rifles with cartridges of a modern military description, such as the .256, .275, .303 or .318, are quite sufficiently powerful for the brain shot. The advantages of these I need hardly enumerate, such as their cheapness, reliability, handiness, lightness, freedom from recoil, etc. For the brain shot only bullets with an unbroken metal envelope (i.e., solids) should be employed; and those showing good weight, moderate velocity, with a blunt or round-nosed point, are much better than the more modern high velocity sharp-pointed variety. They keep a truer course, and are not so liable to turn over as the latter."
I agree.
I have rifle calibers from 224 to 458. The 22 calibers are varmint cartridges but can handle white tail, (illegal in my state). The 24 calibers are reasonable for up to dear, range limited to the shooters skill.
There 26 caliber are great deer rifles with 129 grain projectiles, the 140 would be my choice for elk and black bear, with 160 grain for moose. Where I'm at now I would be inclined to carry my Swede more often than not. The recoil is mild, effectiveness is high compared to the recoil and my rifle isca sporterized old Mauser and if my fast ass falls down the hill I won't feel bad not destroying a $2,000 rig.
The 30-06, the 8 x 57 unless seriously downloaded in my opinion are more than needed for white tail and black bear. For elk these are great choices using full power loads and moose using heavy projectiles, a 800 pound brown bear would be my limit.
I know the 338 Winchester magnum is popular but I went for the 358 Norma, I've taken 2 elk with it, in my opinion unless you minimum shot isc300+ yards too much cartridge.
My 444 Marlin is a great deer, brown bear rifle/cartridge combination for close quarters deer hunting. Over penetration issues are reduced and there is enough power to keep the deer from getting to a plot of restricted land. Brown bear up to 8,00 pounds can be taken in close.
My 45 caliber is a dangerous game guide rifle. Kodiak bear, moose and elk in close.
Similar threads
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.