Despite the ARC outperforming the 24 Nosler just a tad, the SPC boltface is stronger in the AR Platform. Just how much can the ARC case outperform the Valk-Nosler Case in 6mm? Why didn't Hornady just come out with a "244-Valkyrie"? I have read the Brass was not holding up well, is Hornady out to bury the .224 Valkyrie? How good is the 24 Nosler to 1000 Yards?
Why 6mm ARC not 244 Valkyrie?
- Thread starter RustyPin
- Start date
We can guess. Rebated rims in semi-auto rifles are generally not done because of poor reliability.
And if you've been monitoring the 22 Nosler and Valkyrie, you'll observe they widely are reported to have brass issues. 22 Nosler in particular.
Rebated rims are fine in a bolt/pump gun that won't be fed from a box magazine or aren't even a repeater.
Ever wonder why rebated rims are seemingly never used in any military round?
I suspect the 6mm is preferred because it has better performance on both ends of the spectrum, closecrange and long range at 52,000 PSI.
Grendel/6ARC compared to 224 Valkyrie
Pros - Grendel/6ARC has greater case capacity with more efficient case design.
Operates at lower pressure so don't have to load to max pressure to reach 1000 yards. Whereas, Valkyrie is maxed out to achieve this... blown primer pockets being a major Red Flag.
6mm has better bullets for handling the wind and also for hunting.
Cons - main complaint on Grendel / 6ARC / 7.62x39 cartridges, all based on 220 Russian parent case, when shot out of an AR15 is that the base of cartridges are bordering on too wide, leaving a thinner amount of steel lip/collar around the bolt face that fits inside an AR15. In past this was a failure point and if loaded very hot (above the low/mid-50K psi) then this could be a recurring issue.
Pros - Grendel/6ARC has greater case capacity with more efficient case design.
Operates at lower pressure so don't have to load to max pressure to reach 1000 yards. Whereas, Valkyrie is maxed out to achieve this... blown primer pockets being a major Red Flag.
6mm has better bullets for handling the wind and also for hunting.
Cons - main complaint on Grendel / 6ARC / 7.62x39 cartridges, all based on 220 Russian parent case, when shot out of an AR15 is that the base of cartridges are bordering on too wide, leaving a thinner amount of steel lip/collar around the bolt face that fits inside an AR15. In past this was a failure point and if loaded very hot (above the low/mid-50K psi) then this could be a recurring issue.
Adam in WI
Practically lives here
Some are missing the question here. OP is asking why go with the Grendel case and not neck up the 224 V to 6mm?
He asked multiple questions, many of which are being addressed.
OK.
Go run the external ballistics in 4DOF or your ballistic calculator of choice based on the performance you'd see with a pressure-appropriate load for your wildcat after running it through Quickload or your internal ballistics software of choice. I can't directly answer because I've never seen data on the above.
That said, there's no way you'd have enough powder in that case with a long 6mm bullet to approach the 6mm ARC. The bullet would have to be crammed way down into the case. That's the 'quick' answer.
Because it would be terrible. The .224 Valkyrie buried itself, it doesn't need help from Hornady. It's finicky (go look at all the reloading/accuracy chasing that's gone on with these things, it's just not an easy to load cartridge) and the bullet is too small for good spots out at 1000y. 6mm is about as small as you want to go at these distances, especially if you care about any retained energy, let alone spotting splashes. It's hard enough with a 6mm/.243 @ 108gr in an imperfect range, getting down in the 90gr range with a .224 is not fun if you're shooting solo.
Forget hunting for anything beyond small game with a 224V - it's not that you can't - you can, but you better have perfect shot placement on medium game and it's not even legal in some areas. There's just a lot going against it, and when you start talking about non-gas guns, there's a lot better options.
You need short/fat cartridges in the AR15 magazine length to use high BC bullets, the trade-off being bolt size restrictions and retaining enough strength. The 6.5G/6mm ARC/ all the wildcats in the 6.5mm/6mm range are about optimal. Once you go bolt or large frame/other rifle platforms with longer magazine lengths, there's a whole different world of options available.
I like more brass around the primer, boundary pushing win for grendel, major downfall of the nosler design.
Thanks for all the replies, but, just to be clear the only reason the the .224 Valk is really in the discussion is for it brass to be converted into 6mm, hence the 24 Nosler reference. Both are short SPC type cases that have been cut down in order to use the longer 6mm pills. Both Cartridges in question are .244".
For all intensive purposes the 24 Nosler case is the same as the .224 Valk if it was necked up to .244. So yes, it does leave room for the longer Bullets, just not quite as much room as the ARC. The base of the neck on the ARC = 1.25 vs the 24 Nosler's 1.3 or .0472 difference to be exact. ARC listed case capacity is 36 gr H20 vs 34.5 for .224 Valk, or closer to 35.5 for a necked up .244 Valk case. So in realistic Terms for comparisons sake they are nearly identical with the ARC maybe getting a 1 gr advantage and the .047 height advantage. Also the .224 Valk case is rated for 3000 psi more than the ARC.
Please feel free to correct any negligent capacity differences..
Edit: I have no personal experience dealing with the 224 Valk, even the beginning post assumed it was Hornady who introduced the Valk, instead it was Federal. I somehow was lead to believe it was a Hornady Cartridge, my apologies.
For all intensive purposes the 24 Nosler case is the same as the .224 Valk if it was necked up to .244. So yes, it does leave room for the longer Bullets, just not quite as much room as the ARC. The base of the neck on the ARC = 1.25 vs the 24 Nosler's 1.3 or .0472 difference to be exact. ARC listed case capacity is 36 gr H20 vs 34.5 for .224 Valk, or closer to 35.5 for a necked up .244 Valk case. So in realistic Terms for comparisons sake they are nearly identical with the ARC maybe getting a 1 gr advantage and the .047 height advantage. Also the .224 Valk case is rated for 3000 psi more than the ARC.
Please feel free to correct any negligent capacity differences..
Edit: I have no personal experience dealing with the 224 Valk, even the beginning post assumed it was Hornady who introduced the Valk, instead it was Federal. I somehow was lead to believe it was a Hornady Cartridge, my apologies.
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Most flavors of 6mm in any small cartridge for mid-range are solid (6x45, 6PPC, etc). So the real comparison of 6mm Valkyrie versus 6mmGrendel/6Arc comes down to long distance. What we know about the 224 Valkyrie is that it is a case killer... it is loaded to max pressure in order to achieve 1000 yards with a heavy .224 bullet. The 6mm bullets are even heavier out of same case so expect problem to continue.
Grendel/ARC has better case design and more powder capacity - proven accuracy (look at wins by 6PPC and 6.5 Grendel as proof on case design).
= Case design allows long bullets to be seated without pushing them deep beyond the shoulder/neck junction. Even if seat deeper, the case body is wider than SPC/Valkyrie case so it will still hold more powder volume then SPC/Valkyrie case.
= Case operates at lower pressures while achieving the same goals - 1000 yards without blow out primer pockets and ruining brass. You can keep reloading/reusing cases beyond 2-3 firings.
Edit: My response got hung up posting, which in meantime some others helped provide input/answered
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What we know about the 224 Valkyrie is that it is a case killer... it is loaded to max pressure in order to achieve 1000 yards with a heavy .224 bullet. The 6mm bullets are even heavier out of same case so expect problem to continue. -
Response: You're not taking into account by increasing the Caliber .020" You have greatly increased the efficiency of the Case.
Grendel/ARC has better case design and more powder capacity - proven accuracy (look at wins by 6PPC and 6.5 Grendel as proof on case design).
Response: Not in a Gas Gun and I showed increase in capacity is minimal equaling near 1gr H20.
= Case design allows long bullets to be seated without pushing them deep beyond the shoulder/neck junction.
Response: Nearly Irrelevant as I listed the difference Base neck height only .047"
Even if seat deeper, the case body is wider than SPC/Valkyrie case so it will still hold more powder volume then SPC/Valkyrie case.
Response: not true, the Case being wider requires thicker case walls resulting in far less capacity increase than being exacerbated here.
= Case operates at lower pressures while achieving the same goals
Response: Case operates at lower pressures because Grendel Bolts can't handle the higher pressures and fail.
Taking into account the real world numerical data - Any so called advantage in the AR15 platform is negated by the weak Grendel Bolt lug. This alone gives the Advantage of reliability to the 6mm-224 Valkyrie. As I stated earlier I don't have direct experience with the Valk, but we do know it was hampered by Reamer discrepancies which resulted in differing head-space and throats for varying Bullets. These difference were exacerbated by inexperienced users & shooters & builders which led to many bad experiences with the Valk. Is Brass failure inherent to the SPC Case design? If it is this is the 1st I've heard of it, as the SPC brass has a relatively good reputation does it not?[/QUOTE]
Response: You're not taking into account by increasing the Caliber .020" You have greatly increased the efficiency of the Case.
Grendel/ARC has better case design and more powder capacity - proven accuracy (look at wins by 6PPC and 6.5 Grendel as proof on case design).
Response: Not in a Gas Gun and I showed increase in capacity is minimal equaling near 1gr H20.
= Case design allows long bullets to be seated without pushing them deep beyond the shoulder/neck junction.
Response: Nearly Irrelevant as I listed the difference Base neck height only .047"
Even if seat deeper, the case body is wider than SPC/Valkyrie case so it will still hold more powder volume then SPC/Valkyrie case.
Response: not true, the Case being wider requires thicker case walls resulting in far less capacity increase than being exacerbated here.
= Case operates at lower pressures while achieving the same goals
Response: Case operates at lower pressures because Grendel Bolts can't handle the higher pressures and fail.
Taking into account the real world numerical data - Any so called advantage in the AR15 platform is negated by the weak Grendel Bolt lug. This alone gives the Advantage of reliability to the 6mm-224 Valkyrie. As I stated earlier I don't have direct experience with the Valk, but we do know it was hampered by Reamer discrepancies which resulted in differing head-space and throats for varying Bullets. These difference were exacerbated by inexperienced users & shooters & builders which led to many bad experiences with the Valk. Is Brass failure inherent to the SPC Case design? If it is this is the 1st I've heard of it, as the SPC brass has a relatively good reputation does it not?[/QUOTE]
To clarify the SPC case doesn't have an issue as 6.8SPC. However as parent case for Valkyrie, the case isn't holding up to the pressures required for 224 Valkyrie's long range performance objectives. It is maxing out the cartridge
Anecdotal evidence - I see 6mm Grendel / 6mmAR, but no one is chasing 6mm SPC. Either the 6mm small cartridge niche is fully saturated or whatever benefit a 6mmSPC has to offer is insufficient to replace a 6mm Grendel variant in performance, precision or popularity??? Hornady cast its vote and will garner the small niche market ... and most likely sink any hope of 6mm SPC being produced by manufacturer.
I love one-off wildcats. You should put $ down and build one! I'd be interested in your findings.
Anecdotal evidence - I see 6mm Grendel / 6mmAR, but no one is chasing 6mm SPC. Either the 6mm small cartridge niche is fully saturated or whatever benefit a 6mmSPC has to offer is insufficient to replace a 6mm Grendel variant in performance, precision or popularity??? Hornady cast its vote and will garner the small niche market ... and most likely sink any hope of 6mm SPC being produced by manufacturer.
I love one-off wildcats. You should put $ down and build one! I'd be interested in your findings.
I ran some #'s in Quickload comparing the 24 Nosler, 6 mm Valkyrie and the 6 mm Grendel loaded with the 103 eld-X at 52,000 psi (or 105% case fill) out of a 26" stick, 2.260"coal. Only looking at the top velocities from the top several powders...
24 Nosler = 2,710 - 2,760
6 mm Valkyrie = 2,700 - 2,745
6 mm Grendel = 2,810 -2,870
6 mm AR = 2,815 - 2,875
6 mm SPC = 2,685 - 2,700
I did not look at MAX acceptable pressures. But it shows the 6 Grendel's max pressure at 58,740 psi, while the other two are at 55,000 psi.
Edit: just ran the #'s for the 6 mm AR and the 6 mm SPC with the same parameters.
24 Nosler = 2,710 - 2,760
6 mm Valkyrie = 2,700 - 2,745
6 mm Grendel = 2,810 -2,870
6 mm AR = 2,815 - 2,875
6 mm SPC = 2,685 - 2,700
I did not look at MAX acceptable pressures. But it shows the 6 Grendel's max pressure at 58,740 psi, while the other two are at 55,000 psi.
Edit: just ran the #'s for the 6 mm AR and the 6 mm SPC with the same parameters.
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Zero333, That was an informative post. Could you do the same for something in the 90-95 Grain category? IMO that would be more realistic for a Gas-Gun scenario. Keeping in mind the M855A1 is only 62 grain bullet, so a much smaller increase in Projectile weight would seem more realistic. / oh, and perhaps keep the OAL for all comparisons inside the 2.3" box.
The 6mm ARC is designed for a gas gun, and was designed for the heavier 100+ gr bullets. That's not to say it won't do well with lighter, but if you plan to shoot at distance, the 108s are one of the best options for target work. The 103 ELD-X referenced in Zero333's post is one of the best if you're hunting medium game.
No problem... I'll use the same 2.260" COAL, 52,000 psi, 95 gr SMK since that's a popular 95 gr bullet in the 6mm semi-auto cartridges.
And instead of a 26" bbl I'll use a 20" bbl which is more realistic for semi-auto duty...
24 Nosler = 2,640 - 2,675
6 Valkyrie = 2,640 - 2,670
6 Grendel = 2,730 - 2,790
6 AR = 2,730 - 2,795
6 SPC = 2,610 - 2,630
Adam in WI
Practically lives here
What happens with the extra 3000 psi that the 6.8/Valkyrie case is rated for?
Any pressure over 52,000 is undesirable due to excessive rifle wear under rapid fire conditions.
Adam in WI
Practically lives here
Mil spec for 5.56 is 55k isn't it? I thought the ARC was held to 52k because the increase in case size reduced bolt strength. If that's the case why should any comparison artificially handicap any cartridge that doesn't share this weakness?
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