Who else is bothered?

[Infrequent Shooter]

Do you really think you can make 556 and 7.62 on a dedicated rimfire production line? NOPE

I didn't know that, but I do know that producing each of them requires money and resources. Mfgs are going to use their resources where they can make the greater return. edit, I never gave it any thought but it makes sense, rim and CF are two different animals.

 

[JLittle]

I just read this through this thread. I remember “white box” Winchester. Pretty good but there was better out there. I think I’ll just shoot Eley and not be bothered by it. What you should be bothered by is there is little gunpowder produced in the states.

 

[blades]

If I remember correctly Federals discontinuation of the UM line happened when they were swallowed up by a different conglomorate. green tag from cci used to print significantly better than cci standard, but i have also noticed that both cci greentag and standard are listed with a higher velocity than they used to be. pushing 1200 fps vs 1100 ( 1040 is what I remember) I think i know why- so it will cycle the auto loaders. personal sw41 will not cycle reliably with less than 1100 fps rated ammo. I also know that my 2 amt units require hotter than 1040 also. Do not have any 22lr auto rifles so no comment there.
With the hotter ammo dropping through the trans sonic range creates accuracy problems at 100 yds and up, Doesn't shoot as well at 50yds either vs 1040 or less in my BR units.

 

[blades]

Back in the Day a lot of the powder we used was remanufctured from Mil surplus WWII- Korea. Most that was consumed by the mid 80's . with newly mfg lots at close to same specs for some of the more popular items. Was a time when I could run 4831 from either supply house and Accurate arms 3100 interchangably and never see/ notice a significant deviation between them in my model NM 70 target unit or 4895 I think that is what I was using) in the Garand. 30-06 168gr

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Back in the Day a lot of the powder we used was remanufctured from Mil surplus WWII- Korea. Most that was consumed by the mid 80's . with newly mfg lots at close to same specs for some of the more popular items. Was a time when I could run 4831 from either supply house and Accurate arms 3100 interchangably and never see/ notice a significant deviation between them in my model NM 70 target unit or 4895 I think that is what I was using) in the Garand. 30-06 168gr

do you mind giving a hint of your load for the model 70?

 

[1813benny]

I’m bothered by the number of people who have limited knowledge on how capitalism works and the inherent challenges and costs for setting up a new production line for match grade ammunition.

 

[John1945]

What's also funny is Nammo, makers of Lapua, has a profit margin of 7.5% while Apple's is 25%. No complaints about Apple prices.

 

[valtsu]

Most Americans with 22’s are plinkers shooting inexpensive ammo.

I shoot a lot of Lapua but Long Range and Pistol King have gone up 25% and 20% respectively since March.

Hmmm Green Tag they say…….

Didn`t MR "High IQ" put tariffs on European products..? That would explain some of it..?
Lapua stuff is not cheap in Finland, neither is Eley, but I think due to tariffs the rise in US probably could be explained.
But did check some bricks of CCI Standard 500pcs that I have for plinking...
Boxes from 7years ago was Euro 30 and the latest Euro 60...and we dont have the same amount of tariffs, but the vendors maybe like to act when people is confused..?

 

[valtsu]

Didn`t MR "High IQ" put tariffs on European products..? That would explain some of it..?
Lapua stuff is not cheap in Finland, neither is Eley, but I think due to tariffs the rise in US probably could be explained.
But did check some bricks of CCI Standard 500pcs that I have for plinking...
Boxes from 7years ago was Euro 30 and the latest Euro 60...and we dont have the same amount of tariffs, but the vendors maybe like to act when people is confused..?

Sorry, checked the boxes. 39euro before and 74e last year...
Todays exchange shows 1Euro is 1,16$

 

[davidjoe]

I’m enamored with the fast end of Eley Match. Two cards last night were good, a 196 and a 195. This is wind turbine country. That’s 3 grand USD today crown bound.

 

[David Milisock]

Who else is bothered by the fact that American companies, CCI, Federal, Remington, and Winchester are incapable of producing true match grade .22 LR rimfire ammo?
The email response I got from CCI was…
“We manufacture Green Tag, and this is out top tier rimfire offering, and has proven to be very competitive.”

It's possible that the true match quality ammunition market is too small to bother with.

 

[1911nut]

It's possible that the true match quality ammunition market is too small to bother with.

I dunno. Who wants high quality ammo. Benchrest, 50 yd and 100 yd score, long range steel guys, PRS - don’t know much about this other than I see it’s becoming popular. Silhouette, 3 position, Olympic stuff?? What else?

These disciplines want 10 ring ammo I’m bettin.
I coulda bought CenterX yesterday for $21/50.

 

[distinguished]

Didn`t MR "High IQ" put tariffs on European products..? That would explain some of it..?
Lapua stuff is not cheap in Finland, neither is Eley, but I think due to tariffs the rise in US probably could be explained.
But did check some bricks of CCI Standard 500pcs that I have for plinking...
Boxes from 7years ago was Euro 30 and the latest Euro 60...and we dont have the same amount of tariffs, but the vendors maybe like to act when people is confused..?

Please try to keep your political opinions out of the discussion.

 

[Fuj]

What's also funny is Nammo, makers of Lapua, has a profit margin of 7.5% while Apple's is 25%. No complaints about Apple prices.

I don't buy their Chinese crap......Chinese being the key word here.....

 

[David Milisock]

I dunno. Who wants high quality ammo. Benchrest, 50 yd and 100 yd score, long range steel guys, PRS - don’t know much about this other than I see it’s becoming popular. Silhouette, 3 position, Olympic stuff?? What else?

These disciplines want 10 ring ammo I’m bettin.
I coulda bought CenterX yesterday for $21/50.

That does not mean that there are enough buyers to generate profit at the level the manufacturer wants nor the accuracy level the general public is willing to pay for. It's a numbers game.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

This is all silly.

Why doesn’t America make _____________ fill in the blank.

What does America make? Who’s going to work?

No powder made here, hmm?

Having a mining operation of any kind is next to impossible (politics), so where’s the metal coming from?

Can’t go into the specifics of the politics on here, but cmon, really? Are we truly confused here? America consumes things that we import because policies we have allowed.

Change my mind……

 

[houligan]

Stop and think a minute. Look at Starline brass as an example. They make umpteen sizes of empty brass cases for reloading. They CAN NOT all be made on the same machines and tooling, yet they make a profit so they stay in business. How about the reloading die business. RCBS, Lyman, Lee, make quite a few different caliber dies and they stay in business. I don't think they sell a ton of these. I would suggest that CCI and Hornady, and perhaps Norma, could make match ammo to compete with Lapua and Eley. I've completely given up on Remington and Winchester. Again, I suggest they are in the junk ammo business. Federal is to be a force too if they quit sitting on the fence. For what it's worth, a few years back someone mentioned that George Soros was a major stockholder in some company that owned Remington, or had a huge financial interest in them. That's when they (Remington) lost me. Don't know if Soros still has anything to do with Remington but everyone knows what he does and how he feels about American companies. This all something to think about on this very interesting subject.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Stop and think a minute. Look at Starline brass as an example. They make umpteen sizes of empty brass cases for reloading. They CAN NOT all be made on the same machines and tooling, yet they make a profit so they stay in business. How about the reloading die business. RCBS, Lyman, Lee, make quite a few different caliber dies and they stay in business. I don't think they sell a ton of these. I would suggest that CCI and Hornady, and perhaps Norma, could make match ammo to compete with Lapua and Eley. I've completely given up on Remington and Winchester. Again, I suggest they are in the junk ammo business. Federal is to be a force too if they quit sitting on the fence. For what it's worth, a few years back someone mentioned that George Soros was a major stockholder in some company that owned Remington, or had a huge financial interest in them. That's when they (Remington) lost me. Don't know if Soros still has anything to do with Remington but everyone knows what he does and how he feels about American companies. This all something to think about on this very interesting subject.

In my humble opinion. If there were a way to make money in this small niche someone would be doing it domestically. I don’t claim to know all things about this business, but I’m betting that the answer is far more simple than people want to believe. Conspiracies, fun as they are, are rarely true.

 

[searcher]

Well, hey. If you're convinced then start a business. You take the risk.

My point is, it's much easier to talk about than actually do. And if it's YOUR money on the line, the perspective changes.
If it doesn't and you've got the 'coin' then there's your start-up idea.

Good luck.

Yep - putting one's dough on the line can be the tough choice. It does seem that a company (especially an existing manufacturer) could build a small, dedicated operation with the intent to produce ammo on par with our foreign companies - and good enough that it could be exported to those who want it elsewhere. We buy foreign because it is generally the best. If we had something on par or better - they would buy from us as well, and I think that is perhaps the gamble that stops American companies from going forward with. I don't know if the American target shooters could generate enough demand to keep but the smallest line running - if at all. The ammo would have to be good enough to create demand from abroad, I think. I wish I were younger and much richer (don't we all?), as I think this would be a good niche market where the ceiling on price is measured by our foreign competitors - not compared to the average rimfire ammo available domestically. I'd have been game to give this a shot if I could afford to see it all the way. We are in a world of increasing specialization and there isn't much profit when one is competing with everyone - as it seems our current rimfire manufacturers are doing. Look at plinking .22 ammo. I don't even know how many scores of brands/variations there out there.

 

[Fuj]

Maybe someone could establish "The Plinker National BR Association"
Besides the normal or typical class rules, two main rules must be followed.

1. American branded head stamps only.

2. Cost per 500 round box/brick not to exceed $50 bucks, taxes excluded.