Who else is bothered?

[houligan]

I don't mean to beat this horse to death, but How does anyone know there's NOT enough profit when it's not been tried? What are the costs and the needed tooling up when there again, it hasn't been tried! I DO believe we are all trying to outguess this dilemma. Just what is the difference between the match ammo of the 60's, 70's, and 80's and the ammo these American companies are making today? NO guesswork please, NO "the book say's", but real differences. I must say that I am excited about all the different views on this subject and have enjoyed reading them. Let me interject a little thought for all of us to consider. Hornady makes some fine center-fire ammo and apparently makes a profit on small production amounts. Again, if they can do it, I feel like the others can too.

 

[John1945]

I don't mean to beat this horse to death, but How does anyone know there's NOT enough profit when it's not been tried? What are the costs and the needed tooling up when there again, it hasn't been tried! I DO believe we are all trying to outguess this dilemma. Just what is the difference between the match ammo of the 60's, 70's, and 80's and the ammo these American companies are making today? NO guesswork please, NO "the book say's", but real differences. I must say that I am excited about all the different views on this subject and have enjoyed reading them. Let me interject a little thought for all of us to consider. Hornady makes some fine center-fire ammo and apparently makes a profit on small production amounts. Again, if they can do it, I feel like the others can too.

And just how do you know what these manufacturers looked at? You seem to be saying that if "it hasn't been done" they need to spend all the money and then see if it pays off. Sorry, no businesses work that way. Ever think of "trying it" yourself with your money? These bean counters aren't stupid. If there was a decent ROI (Return On Investment) they would have done it

 

[justinp61]

I've never made rimfire ammo, but have messed with hot rods pretty much all of my life. Going fast to a point is pretty easy, it cost money but not really hard to do. Now when you start wanting to go FAST it gets very expensive, the cost of components goes up drastically, the attention to detail is high, and the quality of machine work matters more. The cost difference between 500hp and 700hp is huge in naturally aspirated engines.

I would imagine making high quality rimfire ammo would require similar steps in components, machinery and manpower to run it. I seriously doubt the equipment being used by US manufactures is capable of maintaining the tolerances required to produce top tier ammo.

This and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee in some places.

 

[TRSR8]

Maybe I missed something, but I have the impression that Eley and Lapua are NOT using different tooling to make different grades of 22 ammo. I understand that they are lot testing and the Tenex, Match, Midas, CenterX and so on are by lot quality. Same machines, same lead, same brass, etc. etc.! Is that impossible for American manufacturers? As someone said above, "if you build a better mouse trap, they will be at your door down to buy it"! It doesn't take long with the internet now for the word to get around. If you grade to higher standards, the word will travel fast. If you grade a lot # to plinking standard, and label it MATCH, that word will get around quick also. If American 22 ammo makers started giving some top ranked shooters free quality graded ammo, like they DO for trap and skeet shooters, people will buy and shoot what they shoot. The ammo makers proved that themselves. I personally know some trap and skeet shooters that are getting target loads FREE, by the skid! If better lot testing will get the job done, DO IT! You DON"T see American clay target shooters shooting foreign shot shells! American made only!

You missed something.
The higher end match ammo is made on dedicated lines with their own tooling.
Last I checked, entire global match ammo revenue is small relative to global business comparisons.
Few would be interested in the cost/benefit equation, the entire domestic equation is driven by mass production/ revenue.

 

[houligan]

John1945 - Tell me how Hornady makes so many different cartridges and stays in business. All those different cases, powders and bullets require different production from each other. Hornady just seems to keep the stuff coming. And please, don't try to tell me they sell more 22ARC, or 300 Blackout or 338 Lapua than the number of match 22RF sold in the USA. The combined Eley and Lapua match ammo, I'm thinking, probably far outweighs some of the cartridges Hornady sells. As far as me taking my money and start making 22LR match ammo, you and I know that is impossible. With all respect to you, Sir, that's a rather impertinent remark.

 

[blades]

quite awhile back somewere i read an expose on the making of match 22lr. the write up was centered around Elely I believe and written with much input from someone on their staff. The gist of it all is paying particular attention to all the small details from metetalugy of brass and bullets , primer compound positioning and evenness around the rim, the bit of powder itself. bullet shape /weight, depth of insertion. tension of crimp, condition of machinery, condition of dies for each step and of tolerances for each step. there was a strict quanity of run before line was shut down and retuned by adjustment and/or replacement of items. The actual testing and choosing, sorting, designated or whatever was some what glossed over due to proprietary info.

 

[1911nut]

If we had bigger 10 rings we could shoot American 22 ammo

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Yeah, It's kind of like anything that has a long history, My uncle shot
.22 shorts in the what was called "church leaques" back in the 60's.
the way I understood it, The club hosting the match provided the
ammo for it, and always Eley. He shot great targets with the Winchester
Super X .22 shorts but had to use the club issued ammo at competition's.
I think if anyone was going to commit, it would be Olin......

Yup,.. Winchester / Olin Corp., HAS Made, some Great shooting Ammo over the Years,. IF you can Find, the RIGHT LOT number / Velocity that, Your Rifle, LIKES ( Speaking to,. Hunting / Copper Plated Ammo, Here ).
And Olin, probably "Could" make some Sweet Match grade .22 LR Ammo, If, economically productive to, Do So.
But the Old Engineers that, could "Do it" have, Probably all,.. Retired by Now !

 

[Pareto]

I don't mean to beat this horse to death, but How does anyone know there's NOT enough profit when it's not been tried? What are the costs and the needed tooling up when there again, it hasn't been tried! I DO believe we are all trying to outguess this dilemma. Just what is the difference between the match ammo of the 60's, 70's, and 80's and the ammo these American companies are making today? NO guesswork please, NO "the book say's", but real differences. I must say that I am excited about all the different views on this subject and have enjoyed reading them. Let me interject a little thought for all of us to consider. Hornady makes some fine center-fire ammo and apparently makes a profit on small production amounts. Again, if they can do it, I feel like the others can too.

We do know that at one point Federal did make successful match ammo used by the American team at the Olympics. They decided it wasn't worth their time and they discontinued it. While it is certainly worth Eley's time and Lapua's to continue making match ammo, that's a different decision from asking if a company hasn't already started making match ammo whether or not the ROI would be worth it to start from scratch. My guess that this is the hurdle to new production.

In fact, the real issue is that despite the apparent rise in price people pay for the match ammo, Eley/Lapua/RWS aren't apparently willing to expand their current production sufficiently to meet demand at the levels they used to. This is probably the most damning evidence that firms don't think it's worth their time. While ELR could individually invest in increased capacity, they don't seem to want to do it more than only modest levels.

I'm as disappointed as anyone about this state of affairs, but the market evidence is that so far, watching the price of top ammo climb to 50cpr doesn't seem to move the players much at all.

P.S. My best guess is that nothing less than certainty that their prices could stay high at double their output guaranteed for the next 10-20 years would be enough for them to even consider expanding production. Maybe, not even then.

 

[dusterdave173]

Could simply put on a match with everyone shooting out of a fresh case of ammo provided by the venue.
I have done it and it was fun. Any shooter could win the match.
I would support and embrace it.
Not junk ammo but SK level or Tac22
You would have to buy what was available but it could work out.
More clubs should try it

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Could simply put on a match with everyone shooting out of a fresh case of ammo provided by the venue.
I have done it and it was fun. Any shooter could win the match.
I would support and embrace it.
Not junk ammo but SK level or Tac22
You would have to buy what was available but it could work out.
More clubs should try it

That sounds like communism. I’ll pass.

 

[dusterdave173]

That sounds like communism. I’ll pass.

Well that is a stretch ........

facing the climbing costs of ammo with the possible decline in shooters or at least new shooters lets say-- it seems good to look at ways to have entry level ways to shoot--maybe help get new guys started--or youngsters that could do it that way but could not afford lapua--right?

making it easier to shoot seems like a decent way to go

We can always do it in Addition to the normal program--give shooters a choice
Now a choice ..is very democratic

 

[DShortt]

The old Federal ultra match ( UM1) was pretty good, but as David Joe said, it's sales didn't meet expectations. That said, in the 80s, remington match and winchester T22 were far better than any of the American offerings today. The last time I bought some run of the mill 22 ammo, it had so many failures to fire, it would have been cheaper to buy good ammo.

That wouldn't happen to have been bulk pack Golden Bullets, would it?
If the bullet wobbles and spins freely in the case........
Outcome is predictable.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Well that is a stretch ........

facing the climbing costs of ammo with the possible decline in shooters or at least new shooters lets say-- it seems good to look at ways to have entry level ways to shoot--maybe help get new guys started--or youngsters that could do it that way but could not afford lapua--right?

making it easier to shoot seems like a decent way to go

We can always do it in Addition to the normal program--give shooters a choice
Now a choice ..is very democratic

I guess?

I’m not worried in the least about what everyone else is shooting. Only “ young guys getting into the sport”, I know are in my house, and they have more than they can handle. But, I’m not in a sport, and I don’t go to alphabet sanctioned events with rules and schedules etc.

If I ever did decide to go to a group shoot, and besides the other rules, I had to shoot the same thing as everyone else, I’d find something better to do. Never been that lonely.

 

[John1945]

Well that is a stretch ........

facing the climbing costs of ammo with the possible decline in shooters or at least new shooters lets say-- it seems good to look at ways to have entry level ways to shoot--maybe help get new guys started--or youngsters that could do it that way but could not afford lapua--right?

making it easier to shoot seems like a decent way to go

We can always do it in Addition to the normal program--give shooters a choice
Now a choice ..is very democratic

What about everyone needs to shoot the same make and model rifle too. I mean, you want all equal.

 

[mike mccormick]

That wouldn't happen to have been bulk pack Golden Bullets, would it?
If the bullet wobbles and spins freely in the case........
Outcome is predictable.

No... not the cheap crap. Remington target

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

You missed something.
The higher end match ammo is made on dedicated lines with their own tooling.
Last I checked, entire global match ammo revenue is small relative to global business comparisons.
Few would be interested in the cost/benefit equation, the entire domestic equation is driven by mass production/ revenue.

TRS makes very important point. High end world class 22 ammo is very small market. Companies are going to spend their money in area with bigger possible market....I am pretty sure.

 

[justinp61]

Personally I’d have no problem shooting a club match where everyone shoots the same ammo. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

TRS makes very important point. High end world class 22 ammo is very small market. Companies are going to spend their money in area with bigger possible market....I am pretty sure.

not to mention, with all the damn wars going on right now, the arms makers would rather make/sell 556, and both kinds of 7.62! It will be a while until swords turn into plow shields.

 

[buckeye68]

not to mention, with all the damn wars going on right now, the arms makers would rather make/sell 556, and both kinds of 7.62! It will be a while until swords turn into plow shields.

Do you really think you can make 556 and 7.62 on a dedicated rimfire production line? NOPE