Which midsize 22?

[Lefty2506]

I've been tossing this question around in my head for a few years now. If we can ever go long enough between major breakdowns/repairs (it would be nice to have a year where I don't have an unexpected $4k-$6k expense), I'd like to assemble a custom rifle for shooting paper out to 500 and PDs out to 600 yds or so. I currently have a Savage 12 in 223 that does everything I want out to 300 yds with a 53gr Vmax, and I've made shots out to 500 or 600 yds with it, but I'd like something a little flatter and better in the wind for those shots past 300 yds. The 22 Creedmoor and 22-250 are too big IMHO (too much barrel heat IMHO, and probably too little barrel life). Based on the range reports I'm seeing, the 62gr ELD-VT doesn't like to run over 3500 fps, so I'm looking for a cartridge that can achieve that with a little room to spare so that I'm not trying to push its limits. I'm thinking that something in the 22 PPC to 22 Dasher range would work well. Cartridges that are currently on my radar are the 22PPC, 22 ARC, 22BR, 22BRA, 22GT, 22 Dasher.

From what I can see, the ARC is one of the the only ones that I can get factory brass for that's ready to go, but I'm not a big fan of Hdy brass so that's not really an advantage that I'd take advantage of. I'm also not convinced that Hdy will be providing good support for the 22 ARC in the years to come (224 Valkyrie anyone). However, I do have a 6.5 Grendel, and if I'm going to have to neck down anyway, 6.5 G Starline brass is not only cost effective, it also has a reputation of being pretty good and pretty inexpensive (around $0.55ea). Very little (bolt action) load data out there for the 22 ARC right now. The Hdy data indicates that 3500 fps should be relatively easy to achieve, especially with a 26" tube, but there's just not a lot of users yet to verify the information, but the other cartridges on my list DO have more case capacity which would come in useful if I start pushing heavier bullets.

6BR brass seems to be hard to find, is usually out of stock, and when you find it, its pretty expensive (I'd want 300 min, but prefer 400-500 pcs). There's a LOT of load data out there for the 22BR though. Except for having to buy and then neck the brass, the 22BR seems like an easy button.

22GT brass also appears to be available and at a somewhat reasonable price (only 2x the 6.5G Starline price). Not sure if the GT brass is usually easy to find in-stock, I just know that Alpha brass is available right now. I've seen where a couple of people have struggled to find good loads for their 22 GT. I'm not sure if its a common issue or not. Seems like the BR, GT, and Dasher all have very similar dimensions so I don't understand why the GT would be more difficult to tune a load for than a BR.

6mm Dasher brass also seems to be more available (than BR) and the cost is comparable to GT brass. Between GT and Dasher, I'd probably opt for the GT just because I don't have to neck down the new brass.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[kyotekiller25]

What's wrong with a fast twist 223? It will easily do 5-600 yards with 75g-80g bullets at 2900-3000fps, lapua brass, tons of load data, cheap to shoot, accurate, long barrel life.

I shoot 75g ELDMs at 3000fps from a 28" 223 Wylde out to 1K and it does very well. 5-600 are chip shots.

 

[Lefty2506]

Because I want to do it at 3500 fps and the .223/.223 AI won't get there with a 62gr or 75gr bullet. Not a big deal on paper at the range. Even my 53gr loads are doing fine on paper and steel at 500, but I'm wanting something that runs faster for prairie dogs at that distance.

 

[linebaugh]

First thing I look at is brass. Lapua is still king in my book. Peterson and ADG would also be good. If I cant get top brass the caliber is probably dead at the gate.

You are in the right area for case capacity for what you want. ARC, BR, BRA and to make it simple I would pick straight BR. To make it near perfect IMO it would be BRA. You wont need dasher or gt case capacity for what you want. 223 AI might be another option but you will need to form brass... same for BRA. The BR is a no brainer superbly accurate and proven cartridge.

Getting out past 600 is not that big of a feat but you will need to go with bullets on the heavier side like 75 and above. Twist rate will be important but dont go 7, thats part of the reason for bad reviews and bullet problems past a certain velocity (rpm). Probably 7.5 as fastest or 8 depending on the bullet you want. Run a good blank. That would be the recipe for success... good brass, good barrel blank, proper twist and appropriate case capacity.

 

[Lefty2506]

I've taken the 53gr Vmax to 600 yds in the field with my current Savage in 223. Very easy. I've run the 75s out to 500, and they do great on paper and steel at a known distance. On a live target, they are slow and they drop a lot when fired out of a .223 cartridge.

I'm told that the 80gr ELD is pretty thin skinned and expands easily at this range. I'd likely try it and the 62gr ELD. I'd like to think that an 8 twist with one of these cartridges could stabilize an 80gr, but I'd have to confirm that before ordering a barrel. I haven't plugged any data in for the 80gr, but from a 22 ARC at 500 yds, the 62gr ELD-VT at 3500 fps is within 1" of a 75gr ELD at 3100fps with regards to the wind, but the 75gr has over a foot more drop. My velocities are best guesses, and the larger cases could certainly push the 75gr (and 80) a little faster so maybe they would end up having much better performance in the wind. One thing I've noticed with shooting PDs is that while the wind can be nasty, from one dog to the next there's normally a larger variation in bullet drop due to distance than there is wind drift due to a change in the wind so velocity and retained velocity are important.

On brass, if I could buy 50 pcs of both brands, I would and then I'd see what the difference in accuracy is. Problem is, I don't currently see 6br in stock anywhere. Dropping $3k + glass on a rifle and then not being able to load anything for it because the brass isn't available (or is over $1.50 each) is completely unacceptable in my book. If I were a competitive BR shooter that really only needed 100 pcs of brass, it would be a different story. For what I want to do, I'm not willing to drag the rifle 19 hrs down the road each way without taking along at least 300 rounds of loaded ammunition for it, and I'd much rather take 400-500 depending on what time of year I'm going and what other rifles I'm taking.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

In my experience Alpha brass is equal to Lapua and is readily available in headstamped brass for 22ARC or 22GT. I have been running Alpha brass for 6BR, 6GT and 7SAW with great results!

22 ARC SRP (Small Rifle Primer) | Alpha Munitions

– Contains our proprietary Optimized Case Design (OCD) Technology -100 count boxes ship in custom Alpha Munitions plastic cases with perforated bi-layer foam for protection of cases and loaded ammunition...

alphamunitions.com

22 GT SRP (Small Rifle Primer) | Alpha Munitions

– Optimized Case Design with Optimized Case Head Technology -Primer pockets sized for small rifle primers -100 count boxes ship in custom Alpha Munitions plastic cases with perforated bi-layer foam...

alphamunitions.com

 

[357Mag]

Because I want to do it at 3500 fps and the .223/.223 AI won't get there with a 62gr or 75gr bullet. Not a big deal on paper at the range. Even my 53gr loads are doing fine on paper and steel at 500, but I'm wanting something that runs faster for prairie dogs at that distance.

Lefty -
Howdy !

Your velocity expectations for 62s and 75s ( to me ) sound fairly lofty.
Hodgdon’s load data for .22 Arc showed that from a 24” barrel, no powders / charges listed for a 75 gr bullet cracked 3,100 fps. And for a 62gr bullet, max velocities only reached into the lower 3,400+ fps range. Shooting my wildcat “ .22-35 Remington “,
I was able to put 3,500fps on a 75 “ A”- Max shot from a 28” barrel; and that took
40.4gr of AA3100 + FED LR Match.

I’ll suggest that a stock .22-250 is not “ over bore capacity “. For that matter, neither is
my .22-3 which holds 49.4gr H2O…. a tad more than 22-250 capacity. A 24” .220 Swift shooting 55gr bullets is sitting right @ the point of being over-bore.

Things like how much your reloads are biased towards upper pressure limits, use of powders known/ proven to burn really “ hot “, cadence of firing and barrel temperature,
barrel cleaning practices and such; all play a role’ in obtainable barrel life. My first
.22-35 Remington-chambered barrel was a 24” Hart SS 5 groove 1-14. Despite a few years of my ignorantly cleaning using an uncoated rod, and my doing a too late in its life barrel cryo job; the barrel went 3,400+ rounds before it keyholed a bullet. A favorite load of mine was 41.gr WW 760 and FED Large Magnum Rifle Match, under Hornady 55SX.
A lot of barrel life lies in how they are treated.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Lefty2506]

Lefty -
Howdy !

Your velocity expectations for 62s and 75s ( to me ) sound fairly lofty.
Hodgdon’s load data for .22 Arc showed that from a 24” barrel, no powders / charges listed for a 75 gr bullet cracked 3,100 fps. And for a 62gr bullet, max velocities only reached into the lower 3,400+ fps range. Shooting my wildcat “

With regards,
357Mag

My apologies. I wasn't trying to say that I expected to push a 75gr pill at 3500 fps. Hornady's bolt gun data for the 22 ARC has the 62gr ELD-VT running as fast as 3550 from a 24" barrel. I'd likely be running a 26" 1:8 and would expect to be able to push it some where around 3500 fps without too much effort. I would expect the same barrel to push the 75gr around 3100 fps and an 80gr ELD in the 3000-3100 range.

https://static.hornady.media/site/hornady/files/load-data/22-arc-bolt-gun.pdf

To Kyotekiller's point, once you go past the 223 AI, it you have to start adding quite a bit of case capacity to see significant velocity increases with the heavier bullets, and that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that can push the 62gr bullet at around 3500 fps because it will buck the wind as good as a 75gr but with a much flatter trajectory. The factory data says the 22 ARC can get there, but to your point, I would have to stand on it a little. The rest of the cases have more capacity, so my assumption is that they can reach that 3500 mark more easily. If I go up past the Dasher, it seems like I'm just adding more case capacity for no usable benefit.

I'm likely a few years away from needing to choose a cartridge at this point. By the time I get to that point, maybe BR brass will be more readily available. If not, I have no personal issues with using Alpha brass. For the price, I'd likely choose it over Lapua anyway. At this point, I guess I'm really trying to understand if there are any issues that I'm not aware of with the stuff that's on my list, especially accuracy issues. If one of the options have been proven to be hard to tune, especially with a 62gr ELD-VT, it would be good to know. As far as terminal performance/trajectory, they are probably all going to be close enough that I'll never be able to tell them apart in the field (or even at the bench for that matter).

 

[357Mag]

My apologies. I wasn't trying to say that I expected to push a 75gr pill at 3500 fps. Hornady's bolt gun data for the 22 ARC has the 62gr ELD-VT running as fast as 3550 from a 24" barrel. I'd likely be running a 26" 1:8 and would expect to be able to push it some where around 3500 fps without too much effort. I would expect the same barrel to push the 75gr around 3100 fps and an 80gr ELD in the 3000-3100 range.

https://static.hornady.media/site/hornady/files/load-data/22-arc-bolt-gun.pdf

To Kyotekiller's point, once you go past the 223 AI, it you have to start adding quite a bit of case capacity to see significant velocity increases with the heavier bullets, and that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that can push the 62gr bullet at around 3500 fps because it will buck the wind as good as a 75gr but with a much flatter trajectory. The factory data says the 22 ARC can get there, but to your point, I would have to stand on it a little. The rest of the cases have more capacity, so my assumption is that they can reach that 3500 mark more easily. If I go up past the Dasher, it seems like I'm just adding more case capacity for no usable benefit.

I'm likely a few years away from needing to choose a cartridge at this point. By the time I get to that point, maybe BR brass will be more readily available. If not, I have no personal issues with using Alpha brass. For the price, I'd likely choose it over Lapua anyway. At this point, I guess I'm really trying to understand if there are any issues that I'm not aware of with the stuff that's on my list, especially accuracy issues. If one of the options have been proven to be hard to tune, especially with a 62gr ELD-VT, it would be good to know. As far as terminal performance/trajectory, they are probably all going to be close enough that I'll never be able to tell them apart in the field (or even at the bench for that matter).

Lefty -

Howdy, again !

I will send along a few quotes from ballistician Homer Powley, that speak to rifle
“ internal ballistics “…

“ The expansion ratio determines how much of the chemical energy is converted to kinetic energy “.
This is what you were talking’ about when you commented… “ If I go up past the Dasher, it seems like I’m just adding more case capacity for no usable benefit “.

If you care to, you can use the “ Expansion Ratio “ of different rifles and their chamberings, and perform a comparison between them.

 

[357Mag]

Because I want to do it at 3500 fps and the .223/.223 AI won't get there with a 62gr or 75gr bullet. Not a big deal on paper at the range. Even my 53gr loads are doing fine on paper and steel at 500, but I'm wanting something that runs faster for prairie dogs at that distance.

Lefty -

Oops…. I hit transmit in-error, on the previous response above. I apologize for the delay in finishing the complete response.

To continue:

In the operator’s manual for his “ Powley Computer “, Homer included some enlightening comments …..

“ For conventional types of guns there are only 3 ways by which higher than normal velocities may be obtained.

1. Increase pressure. This is usually unsatisfactory because a 10% increase in pressure increases velocity by only half such a percent, namely 5%.

2. For a given bullet weight, increase total volumne of the gun by increasing Expansion Ratio. You rapidly run into limitations because this means that for a given cartridge you have to increase barrel length. Sometimes the gun becomes unwieldy or too heavy.

3. For a given bullet weight, increasing the total volumne of the by decreasing the Expansion Ratio ( ER ). This is the method most usually used successfully. For a given
gun length the chamber is increased in size. This causes more powder to be burned with more energy and increased velocity. However, the lower limit for ER is usually about 5. “

The “ Guns & Ammo 1974 Annual “ printed a collection of tech article excerpts from Powley, called “ The Powley Papers “. Included in these was a “ Muzzle velocity in 26in Barrels “ chart. Under .22 calibre and listing data for a notional 66gr bullet, Powley listed velocities obtained for expansion ratios 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,10; and 12.
Expansion Ratio Vel
4 4050
5 3865
6 3700
7 3580
8 3400
10 3170
12 2990

* While your interest is data for notional 62 and 75gr .224” cal bullets, different velocity readings would appear as those bullets were shot through a 26” barrel using chamber volumnes that varied in size to provide the Expansion Ratios listed (for comparison sake)

This can give some idea of what might be needed to reach the 3,500 fps velocity target you mention.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[littlebuddybr]

22br/bra

Or the easy button. 22-250. If you don't hot rod it barrel life is as good as the others.

 

[ELR LVR]

22br/bra

Or the easy button. 22-250. If you don't hot rod it barrel life is as good as the others.

22 BR bro -Hands down
I also agree 22-250 is not too big and is about the case capacity you need for what you're trying to do
a 22BR will just do it more efficiently with less powder and keep the velocity up.
And most likely be a touch more accurate.
------------------------------------------------------
If you choose 8 twist you can use the 80's
------------------------------------------------------
I shoot a 13 twist with 55's at 600 no problem though - 3800 fps at the muzzle
Needs approx 9 MOA for 600 (flatter than a 308) with energy at 435 ft/lbs
Going to the heavy's will help your energy

 

[Lefty2506]

What I mean to say is that I don't plan on shooting the 62 gr any faster than 3500 fps. I'm really not interested in the overbore discussion at this point. I was just thinking that 22 ARC can hit that velocity with a 26" tube, using a cartridge that had significantly more case capacity was either going to cause issues with accuracy, or the barrel would heat up a lot faster. In my brain, it uses more powder so it heats the barrel up faster so I have to shoot more slowly. It makes sense to me that if I'm using a larger case at the same velocity, I'll have less throat erosion because of the lower pressures, but does that also translate to cooler barrel temps even though I'm probably still burning more powder?

From what I can tell, the ARC and BR hold around 35gr of H20, the Dasher holds a little over 37gr, the GT and 22-250 hold around 40gr (didn't realize the GT was that big or the 250 was that small), the 22-250 AI holds 46gr, 22x47 should be around 47gr, the 22XC should be around 50gr of H20 , 22CM holds almost 53gr.

I was originally thinking that the 22-250 held closer to 45gr. I didn't realize that blowing it out to an AI increased its capacity so much. I was also under the impression that the 22-250 AI, 22XC, and 22 CM had very similar case capacities since they all have very similar performance.

Seems like a person could break the cartridges into categories based on case capacity. On the bottom would be cases that hold less than 30gr, then those that hold around 35gr, then those that hold around 40 gr, then those that hold 45gr or more. If I'm wanting to push a 62gr bullet at 3500 fps, it seems like the 35gr cartridges can do it, but I'd have to be running at near max pressure. The 40gr stuff could do it more easily (lower pressure), but would that result in more, less, or essentially the same amount of barrel heat?

 

[redrockranger]

I've been tossing this question around in my head for a few years now. If we can ever go long enough between major breakdowns/repairs (it would be nice to have a year where I don't have an unexpected $4k-$6k expense), I'd like to assemble a custom rifle for shooting paper out to 500 and PDs out to 600 yds or so. I currently have a Savage 12 in 223 that does everything I want out to 300 yds with a 53gr Vmax, and I've made shots out to 500 or 600 yds with it, but I'd like something a little flatter and better in the wind for those shots past 300 yds. The 22 Creedmoor and 22-250 are too big IMHO (too much barrel heat IMHO, and probably too little barrel life). Based on the range reports I'm seeing, the 62gr ELD-VT doesn't like to run over 3500 fps, so I'm looking for a cartridge that can achieve that with a little room to spare so that I'm not trying to push its limits. I'm thinking that something in the 22 PPC to 22 Dasher range would work well. Cartridges that are currently on my radar are the 22PPC, 22 ARC, 22BR, 22BRA, 22GT, 22 Dasher.

From what I can see, the ARC is one of the the only ones that I can get factory brass for that's ready to go, but I'm not a big fan of Hdy brass so that's not really an advantage that I'd take advantage of. I'm also not convinced that Hdy will be providing good support for the 22 ARC in the years to come (224 Valkyrie anyone). However, I do have a 6.5 Grendel, and if I'm going to have to neck down anyway, 6.5 G Starline brass is not only cost effective, it also has a reputation of being pretty good and pretty inexpensive (around $0.55ea). Very little (bolt action) load data out there for the 22 ARC right now. The Hdy data indicates that 3500 fps should be relatively easy to achieve, especially with a 26" tube, but there's just not a lot of users yet to verify the information, but the other cartridges on my list DO have more case capacity which would come in useful if I start pushing heavier bullets.

6BR brass seems to be hard to find, is usually out of stock, and when you find it, its pretty expensive (I'd want 300 min, but prefer 400-500 pcs). There's a LOT of load data out there for the 22BR though. Except for having to buy and then neck the brass, the 22BR seems like an easy button.

22GT brass also appears to be available and at a somewhat reasonable price (only 2x the 6.5G Starline price). Not sure if the GT brass is usually easy to find in-stock, I just know that Alpha brass is available right now. I've seen where a couple of people have struggled to find good loads for their 22 GT. I'm not sure if its a common issue or not. Seems like the BR, GT, and Dasher all have very similar dimensions so I don't understand why the GT would be more difficult to tune a load for than a BR.

6mm Dasher brass also seems to be more available (than BR) and the cost is comparable to GT brass. Between GT and Dasher, I'd probably opt for the GT just because I don't have to neck down the new brass.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark

I'd go with a 22BR Norma. Don't get confused with a 22BR Remington.

 

[ELR LVR]

If I remember right
My 22-250 loads were right around 35-36 grns
(Just looked 35.3 grns)
38.0 if you use a slower powder like H-380 (Not necessary)
(what H380 was named for lol 38.0 grns of it gave Mr Hodgdon 1 hole groups)
But yeah I think I was using somehwere like 35.0 grns with my powders of choice for it.
So I am not seeing how even the 22-250 is considered overbore by using maybe 3 grns more
---
There is a little airspace on top of the powder column with a full load
The 22BR mainly eliminates this air space being shorter so in comparison has higher load density
Which makes it more efficient
The 22 BR / depending on powder will use approx 33 grns
----------------
As far as a dif cartridge using 40 grns, I would not be so much concerned with the amount of barrel heat
vs the amount of sand blasting the throat away (metaphorically speaking)
Also if you use ball vs stick, ball powder will help as will using Single based powder

 

[linebaugh]

22 creed and 22250AI are 1 to 1.5 grain apart on H2O from memory. I shot 2 barrels out on the 22250 AI version in about 1000 to 1200 rounds in PRS.

Your last post thinking, as to all of your posts really, are spot on with my thinking.

 

[RegionRat]

There is no shortage of good 224 designs to pick from, even if you factor in avoiding wildcats and brass shortages.

If the 22 BR or those variants doesn't make you happy, there is always something like 22 CM that offers lots of energy and available high quality brass in both small or large primer.

The 22 GT will be a little less case volume than the CM, but just due to the efficiency of that case volume it is coming real close to the 22CM speeds. Something magic about the combinations of powders that tend to work in the volume of the 22 BR to GT range that seems happy.
The 22 CM case will push that 62 ELDVT to about 3500 to 3650 fps.

Life can be short, I say get one of each. In for the range reports.

 

[urbanrifleman]

22br 170 fb
7 twist
88 ELDM or 90 SMK

Too much fun. Too easy.



First real load workup. No seating depth test yet.

 

[Lefty2506]

As far as a dif cartridge using 40 grns, I would not be so much concerned with the amount of barrel heat
vs the amount of sand blasting the throat away (metaphorically speaking)
Also if you use ball vs stick, ball powder will help as will using Single based powder

I can only make afford to make 1 trip out west to shoot PDs per year without getting a divorce, and its normally a 4 day trip where we leave on Thursday afternoon, drive 19 hrs to arrive mid to late Friday morning, shoot the rest of the day Friday, all day Saturday, and then shoot until noon on Sunday before making the 19 hr drive home arriving just before daylight on Monday morning (assuming we drive straight through). With a bolt gun, I normally go through about 400 rounds of 223 on a trip. Even if I only take the one rifle, on something like a 22BR or 22-250, I'd anticipate that the rifle would likely last me at least 3 or 4 years. Having to buy another $400-$500 barrel every 4 years is an acceptable price. Having to limit myself to less than 100 rounds per day to keep the barrel from getting too hot to shoot accurately is not acceptable. That's why I'm concerned about barrel heat and not throat erosion.

The long term goal would be to also have a bigger cartridge (22xc, 22CM, ect), but that would be the next, next rifle, and I wouldn't expect something like that to be the only rifle I took with me.

The 22 BR certainly looks like the easy button. I don't understand why it shoots so much better than similar cartridge designs (ARC, Valkyrie). Regardless of whether its a 22 or 6mm, I've never seen or heard of a BR chambered rifle that didn't shoot bug holes when in capable hands, even with factory ammo. Seems like ANY change someone makes to it is a compromise where you give up its ease of accuracy to eliminate a possible feed issue, pick up a little bit of speed, or scratch some other itch. Seems like I should prioritize saving up and buying the brass before buying the barrel.

 

[redrockranger]

There is nothing wrong with Remington 7 BR and 6 BR brass for a hunting rifle . Run it thru a sizer to shrink the neck.