Which midsize 22?

[Idaho-Lefty]

No disrespect intended, but if my goal for a 53gr v-max was only 3500 fps, I wouldn't go any bigger than a 223 AI. I know that my 22" upper chambered in 223 Wylde will push a 50gr vmax at 3600 fps. If I run it with an A2 stock the lead weight installed in the storage compartment, it has NO recoil

As far as taking more rifles, its an economics thing for me. There's normally 2 or 3 of us that go on the trip, it's a 16 hr drive each way, and there's a limited amount of room for luggage, guns, tools, and gear. We are all shooting either a chassis or a thumbhole stock and its hard to fit 2 of those in a gun case. Even if I did take a 2nd rifle, I would only have room to carry one at a time walking across the prairie. Maybe run a .223 the first day and a half, and then run something like a 22 BR the second half of the trip.

I HAVE a .22-250 ( .308 sized, Bolt FACE ), short action, L-H, Rem 700 that, I want to Do another,..
"RemAge" Criterion, "Sporter" dia., barrel on.
Thinking that, the .22 XC and .22 GT will, FEED,.. Best ! ( This Rifle, will also Be used for, Coyotes, too ! )
I WON'T be, Filling, the Cases Up with, Powder as, 4895 or Varget should work Fine with, these Smaller Bullets to, EASILY get me to,.. 3,500 - 3550 fps.
And I will probably use, some of, My 65 gr. Sierra GK's for Yotes w/ IMR 4350 ( A Good, "Thumper" Bullet ! ).
The 4350 / 65 gr. GK Load will USE, the Extra "Air Space", in those cases, Well !

 

[Lefty2506]

I finally found the information that I've been looking for. It looks like the 22BR max pressure is only 51 kpsi where as the ARC (and most other bolt action cartridges) are 59 kps - 62 kpsi. I would think that the 223 AI would be able to do 62 kpsi as well, especially when using 556 LC brass. Now I understand why everyone is suggesting something with more case capacity if I really want that 62gr bullet to get up around the 3500 fps mark. Maybe operating at the lower pressure also contributes to the cartridges reputation for accuracy. Either way, if I want 3500 fps, it looks like I'm either at the top end of the 22ARC data, or I'm comfortably into a 22-250 or 22GT.

 

[Webster]

I've been tossing this question around in my head for a few years now. If we can ever go long enough between major breakdowns/repairs (it would be nice to have a year where I don't have an unexpected $4k-$6k expense), I'd like to assemble a custom rifle for shooting paper out to 500 and PDs out to 600 yds or so. I currently have a Savage 12 in 223 that does everything I want out to 300 yds with a 53gr Vmax, and I've made shots out to 500 or 600 yds with it, but I'd like something a little flatter and better in the wind for those shots past 300 yds. The 22 Creedmoor and 22-250 are too big IMHO (too much barrel heat IMHO, and probably too little barrel life). Based on the range reports I'm seeing, the 62gr ELD-VT doesn't like to run over 3500 fps, so I'm looking for a cartridge that can achieve that with a little room to spare so that I'm not trying to push its limits. I'm thinking that something in the 22 PPC to 22 Dasher range would work well. Cartridges that are currently on my radar are the 22PPC, 22 ARC, 22BR, 22BRA, 22GT, 22 Dasher.

From what I can see, the ARC is one of the the only ones that I can get factory brass for that's ready to go, but I'm not a big fan of Hdy brass so that's not really an advantage that I'd take advantage of. I'm also not convinced that Hdy will be providing good support for the 22 ARC in the years to come (224 Valkyrie anyone). However, I do have a 6.5 Grendel, and if I'm going to have to neck down anyway, 6.5 G Starline brass is not only cost effective, it also has a reputation of being pretty good and pretty inexpensive (around $0.55ea). Very little (bolt action) load data out there for the 22 ARC right now. The Hdy data indicates that 3500 fps should be relatively easy to achieve, especially with a 26" tube, but there's just not a lot of users yet to verify the information, but the other cartridges on my list DO have more case capacity which would come in useful if I start pushing heavier bullets.

6BR brass seems to be hard to find, is usually out of stock, and when you find it, its pretty expensive (I'd want 300 min, but prefer 400-500 pcs). There's a LOT of load data out there for the 22BR though. Except for having to buy and then neck the brass, the 22BR seems like an easy button.

22GT brass also appears to be available and at a somewhat reasonable price (only 2x the 6.5G Starline price). Not sure if the GT brass is usually easy to find in-stock, I just know that Alpha brass is available right now. I've seen where a couple of people have struggled to find good loads for their 22 GT. I'm not sure if its a common issue or not. Seems like the BR, GT, and Dasher all have very similar dimensions so I don't understand why the GT would be more difficult to tune a load for than a BR.

6mm Dasher brass also seems to be more available (than BR) and the cost is comparable to GT brass. Between GT and Dasher, I'd probably opt for the GT just because I don't have to neck down the new brass.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Mark

I have a 6BR with 4200 shots on the barrel. Still shoots under .500". 3585 fps with 58 gr VMax.
Also have a 6BRX that I have not shoot that much. 3600 fps easy to reach. Both 14 twist. A faster twist for heavier bullets might be better for long range. The 6BRX has the same ballistics as the Dasher. Hard to get Lapua cases now.

 

[357Mag]

I finally found the information that I've been looking for. It looks like the 22BR max pressure is only 51 kpsi where as the ARC (and most other bolt action cartridges) are 59 kps - 62 kpsi. I would think that the 223 AI would be able to do 62 kpsi as well, especially when using 556 LC brass. Now I understand why everyone is suggesting something with more case capacity if I really want that 62gr bullet to get up around the 3500 fps mark. Maybe operating at the lower pressure also contributes to the cartridges reputation for accuracy. Either way, if I want 3500 fps, it looks like I'm either at the top end of the 22ARC data, or I'm comfortably into a 22-250 or 22GT.

Lefty -

Howdy !

FWIW -

Hodgdons listed 22 different powders in their load data for a 24” .22-250.
Only 3 powders had max charges that did not provide 3,500+ fps on a 62gr bullet.
And then….one of those 3 powders only missed generating 3,500 fps by a scant 8 fps.

Of the same 22 powders, 3 were listed as max loads that all produced 63,600 psi.
All other 17 powder’s max loads ran less pressure.

With regards,
357Mag

 

[Lefty2506]

I noticed that. The 22-250 and 22 GT would be able to reach the velocity I'm looking for with plenty of room to spare regarding pressure.

I never would have guessed that the max pressure for a BR case is only 51kpsi. I can't help but wonder how real of a limit that is since its so low. My understanding is that the parent case is the 308 Win which has a max pressure of 62 kpsi. My understanding is also that the max pressure is usually a function of the cartridge's case head design (assuming bolt strength isn't a limiting factor). I don't see why the BR case can't safely go up to 60 kpsi (just like almost every other modern cartridge) which would allow it to achieve my goals as well. The exception to that would be the cases based on the 220 Russian which include the PPC cartridges, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, and the ARC cartridges. However, Hdy lists a max pressure for both ARC cartridges as 62 kpsi when fired in a bolt action.

So much much confusion.... lol

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

FORSTER, is Making, .22 GT Reloading Dies,. and THEY always KNOW,.. a "Winner" cartridge !
In the Future, the .22 GT will eventually Replace,.. the old 1935 designed,. .22-250,.. me thinks.
The .22-250 IS still, pretty Popular TODAY, tho ! ( For GOOD Reason ).
It, "can Be" loaded Up or Down, in Velocity and STILL Shoot,.. "Accurately" !
From Deer / Antelope with, the Tougher, Heavier Bullets to, Sage Rats, It's,.. a Killer !
The .22 GT Has, Big Shoes to, Fill ! ( But it Looks, very,.. capable ! )

 

[urbanrifleman]

FORSTER, is Making, .22 GT Reloading Dies,. and THEY always KNOW,.. a "Winner" cartridge !
In the Future, the .22 GT will eventually Replace,.. the old 1935 designed,. .22-250,.. me thinks.
The .22-250 IS still, pretty Popular TODAY, tho ! ( For GOOD Reason ).
It, "can Be" loaded Up or Down, in Velocity and STILL Shoot,.. "Accurately" !
From Deer / Antelope with, the Tougher, Heavier Bullets to, Sage Rats, It's,.. a Killer !
The .22 GT Has, Big Shoes to, Fill ! ( But it Looks, very,.. capable ! )

I agree.

22gt will be the new 22-250. Of course, there will be a substantial drop in shooters in the future, so I'm not sure if it will ever gain that kind of popularity.

 

[357Mag]

I noticed that. The 22-250 and 22 GT would be able to reach the velocity I'm looking for with plenty of room to spare regarding pressure.

I never would have guessed that the max pressure for a BR case is only 51kpsi. I can't help but wonder how real of a limit that is since its so low. My understanding is that the parent case is the 308 Win which has a max pressure of 62 kpsi. My understanding is also that the max pressure is usually a function of the cartridge's case head design (assuming bolt strength isn't a limiting factor). I don't see why the BR case can't safely go up to 60 kpsi (just like almost every other modern cartridge) which would allow it to achieve my goals as well. The exception to that would be the cases based on the 220 Russian which include the PPC cartridges, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, and the ARC cartridges. However, Hdy lists a max pressure for both ARC cartridges as 62 kpsi when fired in a bolt action.

So much much confusion.... lol

Lefty -

Howdy !

IMHO - a case that can hold an estimated 40gr ( or a tad more ) of an appropriate powder, would be a less frenetic way to reach your .224” cal bullet velocity goal.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Gabe22BR]

So which had the equivalent case capacity of the 22-250???

22XC
22x47L
22GT

???

 

[Lefty2506]

Here's what I could dig up using the ultra-reliable, never wrong, infallible internet of things.

Cartridge, Capacity, Source
223 Rem, 28.2 gr H2O, Nosler
223 Rem, 28.8 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com
223 AI, 32.4 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com
22 ARC, 34.0 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com
224 Valkyrie, 32.8 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com
224 Valkyrie, 34.0 gr H2O, Wikipedia
22 BR, 34.5 gr H2O, Nosler
22 BR, 36.0 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com
22 BRA, ????,
22 BRX, ????,
22 Dasher, ????,
22 GT, 39.9 gr H2O, Google AI
22-250, 40.9 gr H2O, Nosler
22-250, 43.5 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com
22-250 AI, 43.3 gr H2O, Nosler
22x47, ?????,
22 XC, ?????,
22 Creedmoor, 50.0 gr H2O, xxlreloading.com

I'd say all of these are within 1 gr of what a case really holds which varies depending on who's brass you're using, and what reloading dies/techniques you use. As far as what cases have the same essential capacity as a 22-250, I'd say the 22 BRA, 22BRX, 22 Dasher, and 22 GT are all very similar to a 22-250. While I couldn't find any published reference for the information, it makes sense that increasing the capacity of the BR case a little would result in something that's nearly a ballistic twin to the 22-250. The 22x47 appears to hold a little more than the 22-250, and is probably a little more efficient, but again I couldn't find an actual number to reference.

 

[ricco1949]

Back in 2012 I made a 6x47 Lapua .100 Short for LRBR. I call it a 6x47 XLN (Xtra Long Neck).

When Kiff made the reamer he commented that this might catch on. This was long before the 6 GT came around which is a very close cousin.

It bridges the gap between a 6XC and a 6 Dasher and requires no fire forming.....just cut off a FL die, push the shoulder back, turn necks and fire away.

However, from the chart above, it looks like I coulda accomplished the same thing with the old 6 International.

Sure woulda been a lot easier....

 

[Clancy]

So which had the equivalent case capacity of the 22-250???

22XC
22x47L
22GT

???

It’s gotta be the 22 GT

 

[urbanrifleman]

So which had the equivalent case capacity of the 22-250???

22XC
22x47L
22GT

???

22x47

22xc is basically 22-250 Ackley.

 

[alf]

Isn't that what a 224 Valkyrie is?

No.....

 

[Lefty2506]

No.....

Okay, so what's the difference between a 22-6.8 SPC and a 224 Valkyrie?

 

[alf]

Okay, so what's the difference between a 22-6.8 SPC and a 224 Valkyrie?

Longer case length & more capacity.

 

[Lefty2506]

I just looked it up. I didn't realize they bumped the shoulder back so far and shortened the case on the Valkyrie. Looks like it was needed in order to get the 88/90gr stuff down to mag length. Wouldn't need to do that for a bolt gun. Up side on a 22 SPC would be that the brass seems like its always available. Even during Covid, I could find new 6.8 brass. That may not bode well for 6.8 SPC fans in the long run, but time will tell.

 

[alf]

I just looked it up. I didn't realize they bumped the shoulder back so far and shortened the case on the Valkyrie. Looks like it was needed in order to get the 88/90gr stuff down to mag length. Wouldn't need to do that for a bolt gun. Up side on a 22 SPC would be that the brass seems like its always available. Even during Covid, I could find new 6.8 brass. That may not bode well for 6.8 SPC fans in the long run, but time will tell.

That's the downside trying to shoot big bullets in an AR & still stay in the confines of the mags.

My 22 DTI is the 6.8 necked to 22 with the shoulder changed to 30 degrees, so I neck size & bump the shoulder with the Valkyrie full length die, then size the base in a 6.8 die. Saves me the wait & cost for "real" 22 DTI dies.

Mine is built with a 12" twist barrel specifically to shoot the 52 Bergers, which it does quite well at 3550 in a 20" tube.

Next I built a 6x6.8, again with a 12" twist, specifically to shoot the 70 grainers.

I bought a bunch of Starline 6.8 brass, which is almost always available, so no worries there on brass.