Which midsize 22?

[urbanrifleman]

Honestly a 62 ELDVT at 3400ish is going to be impossible to beat. I know a lot of people don't like to hear me say that, but that new bullet just obsoleted all of the old school varmint bullets. The BC is nearly double and the explosion is equal or superior to anything that we tested.

The 22br will easily reach the numbers that I said. As will a 223 Ackley. There really isn't any need for any more than that unless you just want to get crazy. And that's the long and the short of it.

You could use a 22GT or a 22XC or a 22 250 and do the same thing of course. But the 22Br or the 223 ackley will do exactly the same thing cheaper and I doubt any of them will outshoot a 22 BR.

 

[Lefty2506]

Okay, so now I'm confused. The only centerfire rifles I own in 22 cal are chambered in either 223 Wylde (several uppers) or 223 Rem (one Sav model 12 with a 26" 1:9 tube). My understanding is that a 223/5.56 holds a little under 29gr of H20, and a 223 AI holds a hair over 30, and will normally give you an extra 100 fps or so at the muzzle. I'm pretty sure that I'm running a 53gr Vmax at 3500 fps out of my Savage using a max charge of N133. I mean ABSOLUTELY NO disrespect to anyone here, but I find it hard to believe that blowing the case out to an AI would allow me to push a 62gr ELD-VT at almost the same speed. I can believe that the ARC and BR cases will hit that speed, but a 223 AI would have to come with a written guarantee before I'd be willing to try it.

 

[alf]

Another option is the 22-204, equal to, or a hair bigger than the 223 Ackley, with no fireforming needed, just a straight neckup.

I just got done working up a load with the 62 ELD-VT in mine in a 26" 8" twist. I touched 3500, but went with a different powder that I want to use up, at an easy 3300.

 

[alf]

And before someone starts flapping their gums about the 22-204 just being a 222 RM.....


221 Fireball - 222 Rem - 223 Rem - 223 AI - 222 Rem Mag - 22-204 - 22-204 w/80 VLD - 22 Dasher - 22x47 Lapua

 

[Lefty2506]

When it's time to go with something a little bigger, I should keep it simple and do the XC, but that 22x47 looks pretty sexy...

 

[Evan]

What I mean to say is that I don't plan on shooting the 62 gr any faster than 3500 fps. I'm really not interested in the overbore discussion at this point. I was just thinking that 22 ARC can hit that velocity with a 26" tube, using a cartridge that had significantly more case capacity was either going to cause issues with accuracy, or the barrel would heat up a lot faster. In my brain, it uses more powder so it heats the barrel up faster so I have to shoot more slowly. It makes sense to me that if I'm using a larger case at the same velocity, I'll have less throat erosion because of the lower pressures, but does that also translate to cooler barrel temps even though I'm probably still burning more powder?

From what I can tell, the ARC and BR hold around 35gr of H20, the Dasher holds a little over 37gr, the GT and 22-250 hold around 40gr (didn't realize the GT was that big or the 250 was that small), the 22-250 AI holds 46gr, 22x47 should be around 47gr, the 22XC should be around 50gr of H20 , 22CM holds almost 53gr.

I was originally thinking that the 22-250 held closer to 45gr. I didn't realize that blowing it out to an AI increased its capacity so much. I was also under the impression that the 22-250 AI, 22XC, and 22 CM had very similar case capacities since they all have very similar performance.

Seems like a person could break the cartridges into categories based on case capacity. On the bottom would be cases that hold less than 30gr, then those that hold around 35gr, then those that hold around 40 gr, then those that hold 45gr or more. If I'm wanting to push a 62gr bullet at 3500 fps, it seems like the 35gr cartridges can do it, but I'd have to be running at near max pressure. The 40gr stuff could do it more easily (lower pressure), but would that result in more, less, or essentially the same amount of barrel heat?

If you’re concerned about heat, run lower pressure loads on the 22BR. Find a low node a couple grains under max and it will stay significantly cooler. The 90 SMK shoots fantastic at a lower 2780fps node, giving up only a tiny bit to the magical 2950ish node. A rapid 5-shot string for record in benchrest heats the barrel noticeably less at the lower node. For PDs, I would take the low node and enjoy more shooting before it’s hot. Also, do you have a barrel cooler setup? I use a cheap MTM bore guide with a rechargeable air mattress pump to cool my barrels when they’re hot. I can see if I can get a picture for you if you’re interested.

 

[alf]

Another option is the 6.8 SPC case necked to 22. Mine's actually a 22 DTI, which changes the original shoulder to 30 degrees, with no other changes. Starline SPC brass is pretty good, & is generally available. I run 52 Bergers at 3550 in a 20" AR.

6.8 case in the middle, flanked by the 22 DTI cases, and 223 on the ends

 

[ELR LVR]

Any barrel will get hot with sustained fire
Just ask your AR15
--------------------------------------------------
A 22BR will make you want more than 1 though, it really is a fun and impressive cartridge
Even though many others can basically do the same thing I guess

 

[ELR LVR]

This is almost embarrassing to post since these are not typical 22BR groups
These are crappy 22 BR groups. (2nd photo is its normal load but using 5 grns more)
but keep this in mind
This is a First time out for this rifle testing a whole "new to me" powder I had never tried in a 22BR
LT-32 (I had 2 lbs I hadn't tried it in anything yet)
It's a little faster burn rate (Taking 5 less grains than what I normally use)
But if you take a closer look you'll at least notice one thing.
The groups in the ladder test are at least grouping right near my point of aim
Meaning:
a 22BR shoots pretty much any powder and any bullet accurately
I have noticed just about every single 22BR owner here
All Shoot a different bullet
and they all rave about it's accuracy
Just food for thought my friend.
(I'm going to have to go back and fool with the 27.5 and 28.5 gr load)
But this may just be the wrong powder altogether for this bullet)

 

[Lefty2506]

I'm noticing the same thing. I don't understand why the 22BR shoots so well, but the ARC, BRA, and Dasher take more work and are more picky (which is a complete guess on my part). Regardless, since my goal is to push a 62gr ELD-VT around 3500 fps so I can shoot PDs out to 600 yds with more consistency, it makes sense to start with a cartridge that's known for being super accurate across the board. My only question ends up coming back to barrel heat. If a 22BR, 22 Dasher, 22GT, and 22BRA are all pushing the 62gr bullet at 3500 fps, is there enough of a difference in barrel heat to even notice?

I don't have a barrel cooler. I'd be willing to look into one, but weight will be an issue. I don't have vehicle access to most of the places I shoot PDs, so I'm carrying everything on my back. I could easily add an air mattress pump to my backpack. Adding a battery to run it on is a different story. Out of a bolt action 223, I'm normally going through about 125 rounds per day. If I'm taking more shots at longer distances, I would expect to increase that number to 150 to 200 rnds per day. The bigger question is probably how many rounds I can fire in a string before I'd need to let the barrel cool. The cadence of fire will obviously depend on how many potential targets there are, and how long they remain in the vicinity, but I'd expect to be able to run at least 10 rounds (1 AICS mag) before taking any kind of break, and would really prefer to be able to run 20 rounds over a period of 15 minutes or so if possible.

 

[Lefty2506]

Another option is the 6.8 SPC case necked to 22.

Isn't that what a 224 Valkyrie is?

 

[ELR LVR]

If a 22BR, 22 Dasher, 22GT, and 22BRA are all pushing the 62gr bullet at 3500 fps, is there enough of a difference in barrel heat to even notice?

I dont believe there is enough difference between these to concern
Your biggest ally will be barrel mass
my two main long rangers, have big long thick barrels and they never get hot enough to get above warm to the touch
---------------
But I know what it's like shooting a dog town so bring another gun to swap out and switch back and forth
My dad used to go to Wyoming every year
Every year he wore a barrel out, including .223 bolt guns which are very conservative on powder and heat by comparison
---------------
Exercise discipline, they will come back out if you wait a half hour
Thats a good time to stop and clean

 

[Lefty2506]

I dont believe there is enough difference between these to concern
Your biggest ally will be barrel mass
my two main long rangers, have big long thick barrels and they never get hot enough to get above warm to the touch
---------------
But I know what it's like shooting a dog town so bring another gun to swap out and switch back and forth
My dad used to go to Wyoming every year
Every year he wore a barrel out, including .223 bolt guns which are very conservative on powder and heat by comparison
---------------
Exercise discipline, they will come back out if you wait a half hour
Thats a good time to stop and clean

Agreed, but its often 500-1000 yds back to the truck to get out another rifle, or drag out the cleaning supplies. From what I've heard, the dog towns we're shooting are not as heavily populated as they used to be 10-20 years ago. Even with an AR, we normally only go through about 200 rnds per day (per shooter). With a bolt gun, its more like 150 rounds or less which seems like it should be pretty doable.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

When it's time to go with something a little bigger, I should keep it simple and do the XC, but that 22x47 looks pretty sexy...

Yup,. It's gonna Be, a "Toss Up" between, the .22 XC and the .22 GT for Me, as want them to, "Run Smoothly" in a Rem 700 Short action, HAVE Dies and Brass, readily available and gimme, 3,400- 3,550 fps with 50, 52 and 53 grain bullets For,.. NO,.. Muzzle "Jump" to see, the "Splodies" on Sage Rats from, an 8-8.5 pound, Walking, Varmint Rifle.
( Which I already HAVE, w/ a .22-250, Rem "Sporter", Now ) Wanting to Use, My SAME Action and Duplicate the ACCURACY of, the .22-250 with, a little LESS, Powder and Trimming used,.. Hopefully !
IF, Forster Makes Dies,.. I'm a gonna,.. Build IT,.. a 24", Braked, 12 Twist,.. Sporter wt., Barrel.

 

[ELR LVR]

Agreed, but its often 500-1000 yds back to the truck to get out another rifle, or drag out the cleaning supplies. From what I've heard, the dog towns we're shooting are not as heavily populated as they used to be 10-20 years ago. Even with an AR, we normally only go through about 200 rnds per day (per shooter). With a bolt gun, its more like 150 rounds or less which seems like it should be pretty doable.

oh wow, yeah thats a big population drop since a few years ago.
150 rounds spread through out a whole day is not going to heat up the gun much

 

[ISS]

I have always taken 3-5 rifles on PD trips up in Montana, on my in-laws ranches the past 36 years.
A pair of 223's and a 22-250 or 220 Swift, a 6mm or 25 284, and my 257 Banshee (powder capacity of a 300 WM, but no belt) and something crazy like my OM 70 in 300 H&H or a 300 WM Eliseo Tube Gun built on a 700. 10-15 rounds per rifle, then a break to clean. Keep the barrels warm at most, and barrels seem to last forever. Start with the big bores out to half a mile and work your way in. The closer ones never seem to look behind them, but the reverse is way too frequent.

It is really fun bouncing in and out of depressions 8-10 feet circular and 2-3 feet deep that turn out to be Bison wallows from about 150 years ago. And seeing the wild horse herd that has been there about that long.

 

[Lefty2506]

Yup,. It's gonna Be, a "Toss Up" between, the .22 XC and the .22 GT for Me, as want them to, "Run Smoothly" in a Rem 700 Short action, HAVE Dies and Brass, readily available and gimme, 3,400- 3,550 fps with 50, 52 and 53 grain bullets For,.. NO,.. Muzzle "Jump" to see, the "Splodies" on Sage Rats from, an 8-8.5 pound, Walking, Varmint Rifle.
( Which I already HAVE, w/ a .22-250, Rem "Sporter", Now ) Wanting to Use, My SAME Action and Duplicate the ACCURACY of, the .22-250 with, a little LESS, Powder and Trimming used,.. Hopefully !
IF, Forster Makes Dies,.. I'm a gonna,.. Build IT,.. a 24", Braked, 12 Twist,.. Sporter wt., Barrel.

No disrespect intended, but if my goal for a 53gr v-max was only 3500 fps, I wouldn't go any bigger than a 223 AI. I know that my 22" upper chambered in 223 Wylde will push a 50gr vmax at 3600 fps. If I run it with an A2 stock the lead weight installed in the storage compartment, it has NO recoil

As far as taking more rifles, its an economics thing for me. There's normally 2 or 3 of us that go on the trip, it's a 16 hr drive each way, and there's a limited amount of room for luggage, guns, tools, and gear. We are all shooting either a chassis or a thumbhole stock and its hard to fit 2 of those in a gun case. Even if I did take a 2nd rifle, I would only have room to carry one at a time walking across the prairie. Maybe run a .223 the first day and a half, and then run something like a 22 BR the second half of the trip.

 

[Frankm]

The 22 GT has nearly identical case capacity to a standard 22-250. Our 22 GTs have .150 throats for 80 to 88 gr Eldms.

If you re thinking 62 Eld v/t and 75 Eldm I d suggest .050 to .075 throat so you can comfortably reach the lands. The 62 V/T shoots really well in my .050 throated 22-250 AI touching the lands. The GT or std 22-250 should move that bullet 3400 ish with a 24-26” barrel.

Might be what you want; as you know all these case discussions, throat length, bullet and barrel length discussions end up really being a compromise and ONLY you know what your goal/needs are.

Good luck.

BTW, 22 GT and 22-250 will feed vs the shorter BR and Dasher cases. But, maybe you re only looking at single loading and not repeatability. ( again, only YOU know!!)

 

[Lefty2506]

I plan on feeding from an AICS mag, but its just PDs so an occasional feed hiccup isn't a total deal breaker.

My goal is 3500ish with a 62gr ELT-VT. As with most battle plans, mine may not survive first contact.... I don't plan on running anything heavier because the heavier stuff because the 75s, 80s, and 90s really shouldn't offer me any noticeable improvements out to 600 yds. With something in the 35-40gr case capacity, there IS the potential of running both the 62gr AND the (cheaper) 53gr IF I can do both accurately with the same twist rate (seems doable).

Ultimately, I need to pay attention and listen as more reports come back on the 62gr to understand whether or not 3500 fps is a realistic goal with a 26" barrel and a BR chamber. If not, then the GT or 22-250 would be my next options, but I need to completely rule out the BR before I give those much consideration. Just seems odd that Hdy is publishing 3500 fps for the ARC, and I think I recall seeing one or two people getting that from their rifles, but people with experience are saying the 22BR will have a hard time getting there.

 

[DLT]

When it's time to go with something a little bigger, I should keep it simple and do the XC, but that 22x47 looks pretty sexy...

Was going to mention a 22x47 also