Which barrel contour?

[Hondo64d]

I have spent literally years and $thousands trying to make light barreled hunting rigs shoot to my satisfaction, but to no avail. I am, at this point, pretty much done with the attempt and am now going to go with heavier tubes. I have had several rifles chambered by top name 'smiths with #2 tubes from Douglas and Hart and most recently three Bartlein 2Bs. My experience with these light contours is that one MOA 5-shot groups is what they are consistently capable of, even if being very careful to not let the barrel get hot. Very often I will have 4 shots in .5 MOA or so and one out about .5 to 1 inch. I may not be the best shot, but I KNOW if my crosshairs were .5 to 1 inch out at the trigger break or if I have had a significant wind shift.

Anyway, all of this leads to this question:

At what contour have you guys observed that barrels become significantly more consistent than the #2 and 3 contours?

I have also used a #4 Brux that was somewhat more consistent than my #2 and 3 contours and I have used two #5 contours that were significantly better than any of the lighter tubes, including the #4. I have asked this question of a couple of well known 'smiths. One of them said Light Palma is where things become noticeably better and the other said a #5.

What say you?

John

 

[Larryh128]

#4 is going to be more consistant than a #3 or #2 IF all things are equal. And a#5 is going to be more consistant than a #4, all the way up to an unturned blank. The real question on a hunting rig is how much weight do you want to carry?

 

[JRS]

#5 and have it fluted if you need to reduce weight.

 

[Hondo64d]

Larry,

I get what you're saying but is there a point of deminishing returns? At what point in barrel contours will the difference in accuracy potential be REALLY difficult to measure? That might help me decide how heavy I am willing to go.

Thanks,

John

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I have never not been able to get a #2 or #3 krieger or shilen to shoot to real fine hunting gun standards and most are better than normal. If you shoot more than 3 shot groups youre not in the hunting gun game anymore and need bigger tubes

 

[Hondo64d]

I have never not been able to get a #2 or #3 krieger or shilen to shoot to real fine hunting gun standards and most are better than normal. If you shoot more than 3 shot groups youre not in the hunting gun game anymore and need bigger tubes

Dusty,

Even if I am careful to not let the barrel heat up? Over the years, I have discovered that three shot groups by themselves are not a very good indicator of where the next shot is going to go. I have often shot tiny three shot groups only to have the next one be MUCH bigger. If I shoot multiple three shot groups at the same POA, I get a much clearer picture of how the gun is going to shoot. And, by letting the barrel cool between those groups, I cannot blame any inconsistency on barrel heat. When doing this, I have seen, that more often than not, what might normally be thought of as a flyer really isn't, but is actually an indicator of how well that load is going to shoot. For me, three shot groups have been able to tell me that a load may not be that great, but virtually never tells me that a load IS a good one.

John

 

[Changeling]

I really have a hard time understanding your problem. Light barrels up to #3 are just that, light barrels for a hunting rifle (deer, yotes, elk, fox, things of that nature) where the idea is a rifle easy to carry, less fatigue, for rough country or handicapped people by health, age, size, whatever. These kind of rifles set up correctly with good barrels can be capable of 1/2 to 1 inch accuracy in the first 2 to 3 shots (consistently, normally, maybe).

The first 2 shots (non dangerous game) are usually the most one will get off while an animal is in position, direction shock or beginning to hit second gear.
With no hits, you shouldn't be shooting after that because the animal is out of position and fast moving! Short of a miracle you will NOT hit a dodging/running animal after the first 2 shots and most times, after the first shot in a kill zone sized area up to 300yd or a LOT less. When you through in trees, up and down running, the dodging and varying full tilt speed/direction changes, I sincerely hope you get the idea!
However some claim to do it out to 6 or 8 hundred yards!

Back to your basic question, that everyone has answered. Normally, from a number 1 size barrel, accuracy will increase for every size increase in barrel weight you get. That is not to say that the increase will be some exact number because of all the variables involved, to include, that it might not even increase from one weight to another in all circumstances.
You want an answer that is impossible to give as a numerical constant, that's just not the nature of the beast. About the best one can say is a number 3 might be better then a #1, number 5 better the a # 4, and so on

 

[Hondo64d]

Thanks for the reply. No doubt the rifles will do what is required for hunting. I simply want more consistency than they are capable of, because I like doing long range steel too. After having tried many lighter barrels, and some medium weights I have concluded that a stiffer tube is more likely to give me the results I am after. I was just wondering if someone on here has chambered/shot enough different contours to be able to observe a trend on where stiffer contours really come into their own and where upping the weight doesn't really help.

John

 

[Dusty Stevens]

As many barrels as i put on each year i can say you cannot have it all. If you want a hunting rifle that does what a hunting rifle does- shoot 1/2" non magnum groups for 3 shots then a number 2 or 3 is the perfect choice. If you are in the camp that your hunting gun has to bang steel at 1200yds and shoot tiny 1/4" 10 shot groups then you need a bigger one. But you gotta be able to carry a 12-15lb gun. Its all in what you want and one gun wont do it all. I can tell you 100% that a #5 doesnt shoot smaller 3 shot groups than a #3 and a 3 shot group is what a hunting rifle is judged by- not 15 shot ladder tests.

 

[JigStick]

I have a 270 built by dave bruno on a Stiller action and #3 Krieger that will shoot a ragged hole at 100yds with 130g Hornady Interbonds and Sierra Gamekings.

 

[STS]

I've chambered quite a few 4 tapers that would shoot dots if the rest of the rifle was up to the task. I don't believe a 5 taper has any more accuracy "built in" to the taper, it's just easier to shoot with that little bit of additional weight.

 

[dryhumor]

I've found #4 contours to be about just right. Not too heavy, and enough stiffness. Not bad to carry.


That being said; I have a pencil barrel Model 7 that hammers.
But only for 3 or 4 quick shots.


You might "need" another rifle... As if we ever needed an excuse for another.

 

[dkhunt14]

Weight on a barrel helps the gun shoot better. Look at the swamp barrels they put in muzzleloaders. They were made for off-hand shooting because it would throw the weight more out on the muzzle. I don't believe what you are seeing is in the barrels. It could be you, loading, not the right twist, bullet or a lot of things. Did you let anybody else shoot the rifles?

When I am hunting I try to make the first shot count. After the first shot, the odds of hitting go down hill. Matt

 

[Hondo64d]

I've found #4 contours to be about just right. Not too heavy, and enough stiffness. Not bad to carry.


That being said; I have a pencil barrel Model 7 that hammers.
But only for 3 or 4 quick shots.


You might "need" another rifle... As if we ever needed an excuse for another.

Thanks DH. Yeah, I guess I worded the post poorly, leading folks to believe that maybe I was going to rebarrel my hunting rifles with heavier tubes. I considered that and have gone that way before but I am leaning more toward a new rig for this endeavor. I did have a #4 not long ago and it shot a little better than my 2Bs but not dramatically so. Both my #5s were significantly better than any 2, 2B, or 3 tube I have ever used. This time I'm looking for something where all shots touching is the norm not just something that happens occasionally with the rifle's favorite load. On the other hand, I don't necessarily want a 1.25" straight tube either if I'm not going to see markedly improved consistency from it.

Between this forum and others and a couple of top name 'smiths I've talked to, the increased precision seems to start somewhere between #5s and Remington Varmint or Light Palma contours. At this point I'm thinking about going with something along those lines but still welcome everybody's thoughts.

John

 

[Ggmac]

Go to a shorter tube .

 

[Alex Wheeler]

All the hunting rifles I do are #4-#5 sometimes fluted. But they are also usually magnums. A #5 fluted is pretty light in a .338. I have not seen any accuracy problems with these barrels. Its going to be hard to put down good 5 shot groups with a #2 while not getting is too hot and no wind flags. Tom on this forum has a 6.5 slr in a #3 that is amazingly accurate by and standard.

 

[LHSmith]

I have spent literally years and $thousands trying to make light barreled hunting rigs shoot to my satisfaction, but to no avail.
I may not be the best shot, but I KNOW if my crosshairs were .5 to 1 inch out at the trigger break or if I have had a significant wind shift.
John

Ditto here, I spent 30 years trying to do the same and it wasn't until I started Benchrest competition that I realized I had learned very little in that time.
How do you KNOW you are having a wind shift? And define significant shift.
First, without flags......you are just plinking. IF your goal is the absolute smallest group possible- then flags (and learning how to use them) are mandatory. Get these books: "Extreme Rifle Accuracy" (Ratigan) and "Rifle Accuracy Facts" (Boyer). They will explain the multitude of hurdles you must overcome to reap the ultimate accuracy of your equipment.
Don't believe it when you hear that Joe Schmoe has a sporter weight hunting rifle that shoots groups in a single hole on any given day and can do it all day long. The best shooters on the planet using the best equipment made can't do it 100% of the time.
In brief, some issues you are likely overlooking: Barrel mirage, field mirage, parallax, aiming error due to low power scope (poor bullseye resolution), cooking rounds in the chamber, poor rest set-up, improper fill in bags, unstable bench, too heavy trigger pull, poor gun handling- cheek pressure (tend to tense up on last shot of group), poor trigger control- jerking and/or pulling on side of trigger,shooting early am or late pm when hard to see thermals are at work, etc.

 

[Hondo64d]

Ditto here, I spent 30 years trying to do the same and it wasn't until I started Benchrest competition that I realized I had learned very little in that time.
How do you KNOW you are having a wind shift? And define significant shift.
First, without flags......you are just plinking. IF your goal is the absolute smallest group possible- then flags (and learning how to use them) are mandatory. Get these books: "Extreme Rifle Accuracy" (Ratigan) and "Rifle Accuracy Facts" (Boyer). They will explain the multitude of hurdles you must overcome to reap the ultimate accuracy of your equipment.
Don't believe it when you hear that Joe Schmoe has a sporter weight hunting rifle that shoots groups in a single hole on any given day and can do it all day long. The best shooters on the planet using the best equipment made can't do it 100% of the time.
In brief, some issues you are likely overlooking: Barrel mirage, field mirage, parallax, aiming error due to low power scope (poor bullseye resolution), cooking rounds in the chamber, poor rest set-up, improper fill in bags, unstable bench, too heavy trigger pull, poor gun handling- cheek pressure (tend to tense up on last shot of group), poor trigger control- jerking and/or pulling on side of trigger,shooting early am or late pm when hard to see thermals are at work, etc.

LH, Any thoughts on where in the contour ladder you start noticing markedly more consistency? And also as you keep going up in contour where you stop seeing noticeable gains?

Thanks,

John

 

[IdahoCTD]

For me I see better accuracy from #5's and heavier but just about everything I build is a magnum from 6.5mm's to .30's. Big 338's need a Sendero or larger contour IMO. A #5 with a reasonable scope and stock weight will run around 10-10.25lbs ready to hunt. With a lighter stock like the Manners EH's it can be down below 9.5lbs and with some of the heavier stocks it will push 11+lbs. With a Nightforce it will push 12lbs. Most all of my rifles I use for hunting are #5's, light Palma, or Sendero contour's.

 

[Hondo64d]

For me I see better accuracy from #5's and heavier but just about everything I build is a magnum from 6.5mm's to .30's. Big 338's need a Sendero or larger contour IMO. A #5 with a reasonable scope and stock weight will run around 10-10.25lbs ready to hunt. With a lighter stock like the Manners EH's it can be down below 9.5lbs and with some of the heavier stocks it will push 11+lbs. With a Nightforce it will push 12lbs. Most all of my rifles I use for hunting are #5's, light Palma, or Sendero contour's.

Just the type of data I'm looking for. Thanks. Any preference between the contours you mentioned?

Thanks,

John