Which 4 cals in a Remington 700 for 1/2" MOA??

[VaniB]

I am not trying to make you mad but to give you some info to consider. Take it for what you will.

If you consider an occasional 5-shot 1/2" group at 100 yds the goal then you are fine. However police/sniper/sporter style rifles in the calibers you mention are not usually consistent 1/2" 100 yd 5-shot group guns.

Agreed.

Since then I have had dozens of those rifles, both in factory and custom guns, and nothing about how they are shot that makes them true on demand 1/2 MOA rifles, unless you get lucky. (Granted, you did say you were hoping to get lucky.) I became very frustrated because I would get one .2" group at 100 yds then a bunch of .7s. This was initially with Senderos in 7mm RM and 300 Win. I would make sure the barrel was cold, be steady and consistent, and thought I was being precise about loading.

So then I started building using custom barrels and trued actions carefully bedded in HS Precision and McMillan stocks built by accuracy gunsmiths. These guns didn't really shoot much better than the Senderos.........

I have experienced the same thing with my most accurate smithed rifles. Except I chalk up my insonsistant results as simply my learning what my rifle likes and doesn't like. Once I familiarize myself with the rifle, I get conistantly tighter targets during the session. I have rifles that love to be cradled in my arms tight and deliver 1/4" MOA that way, and a 1971 light sporter that shoots 1" when held tight, but will shoot a 5 shot 1/2" group when allowed to slip through my fingers like a pool cue.

When I started competition shooting I learned how to load and shoot a rifle accurately. Only some of what you mentioned above is what allows consistent small groups. Why is that?

1. A VSF/Sendero stock is not an accuracy stock, it is a compromise stock that works okay in several shooting positions. If you really want to shoot small groups then you need a stock designed for that.

Yes & No.
A shooter has to know he can't expect 1/2" MOA from a cheap plastic stock. Neither are all H-S stocks made equal. The aluminum base H-S stock that I test my 700 rifles with is a proven stock that has given me good results in the past. It helps me to weed out bad factory barreled-actions before I invest any more time & money in a custom stock, glassing, pillar bedding, etc.

2. Weighing bullets has no effect on accuracy. What's important with bullets is consistency of bearing surface and shape. A base to ogive measurement is excellent for that, I personally measure them in two places for the competition guns.

I respectfully disagree. Especially if your gun prefers Hornady over Berger & Sierra, as the variance in Hornady bullet manufacture can vary a couple of 1/10ths of a grain which is enough to show up on target. I've tested this to confirm it.

3. Annealing doesn't really help accuracy, but it does extend brass life and is worth doing.

Respectfully disagree.
I have found annealing to help accuracy often (but not always) with more consistant bullet pull. Great pull variance gravely effects group size. Often when seeking BR accuracy, I will employ a K&M expandiron too for better bullet pull uniformity.

4. Concentricity might matter a little, but I don't worry about concentricity anymore and I have real sub 1/4 MOA at 200 yd 5-shot groups guns.

Respectfully disagree.
I check case concentricity, and then completed cartridge concentricity with 2 seperate Sinclair gages that sit on my shelf. Any cartridges over 4000ths are not used for serious grouping. Over 8000ths and it is used for fouler or sight-in shots. I have definitely seen inconcentric rounds end up being the spoler/outlier shots in the 5 shot group at 100 yards.

5. I don't know what a quality cradle is, but best groups usually come from high quality front and rear rests that are set up to allow the gun to track consistently, allowing the ability to shoot fast enough to keep the 5-shot group in the same micro condition.

Agreed.
I use rests and cradles with names like Hart and Sinclair, including add-ons or modifications I provide as needed to my equipment. ( not the "MTM" or "Caldwell" or etc, that 98% of the population buys at a sporting goods chain store.) As well, I bring along the right leather and/or cloth sand bags to fit each rifle I shoot.

6. Consistent gun handling is indeed critical, but it is hard to do that with a VSF/Sendero stock off the bench

7. Wind flags are always a good idea

Agree, disagree, agree.

Yes, consistant handling is indeed critical.
I have obtained numerous 1/2" MOA groups with factory H-S stocks, and smaller groups with modified H-S stocks. Just like factory 700's, some H-S stocks are made better then others with all needing to be individually tested to make an assesment.
I never leave home without windflags if I'm gunning for tight groups. I use 3 flags inside of 100yards.

8. A real target gun groups as well when the barrel is hot as it does when cold. A gun that only shoots 5-shot groups well when it's cold isn't worth much. Now a hunting rifle that shoots one or two to the aimpoint each time from a cold barrel is very useful. But it's pointless to have a rifle that can only shoot 5-shot groups from a cold barrel in perfect conditions.

Depends on what ones definition of a "Target Gun" is. If it's to be used in competition with repetative firing, then I agree fully with you. But for a "police" or "sniper" rifle, I'm only desiring predictable extreme accuracy for the first shot. I take satisfaction in knowing that first and 2nd shot are going exactly onto that X..... as long as I do my part.
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Thank you very much for your time and patience.

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I hope I didn't come here appearing to be asking folks for advice, and then looking like a jerk that debates advice. While I'm far from being an expert, I believe I'm probably a little better then being a novice. I think much of this is basically like asking about "Ford VS Chevy" with no right or wrong, but mostly personal opinion. But.....I have no experience with the 7mm-08 or the 280 and wanted to hear everybody's comparison of the 4 cartridges for a consensus. I found your input very helpful, as much of it it reinforces what I already suspected......that the 308 is probably the best bet. Though, I'd still love to be sold on the 280.... because I think a long badass cartridge that shoots 1/2" MOA would be fun. lol

 

[Bc'z]

NOT A REMINGTON !!!!
Bergara B14 HMR
Available in 6.5 creedmoor, 308, and a couple few other calibers.
Nephews 22-250 pictured, with some hot spit super light wieght Vortex 3x15.
This is that hot chick that warrants a second look.

 

[VaniB]

Thanks joshb for all the photos.

Appreciate everybody else taking time to provide input and photos. The 308 seems logical and a safer bet for an out of the box success. It would be easier too since I already have Redding bushing dies & tools for it. A long actioned 280 Rem700 would be more fun to me being a 308 or 6.5CM is already in my stable. But I'm hearing in most cases the 280 factory rifle is a great "hunting rifle". "Hunting rifles" generally don't translate to 1/2" MOA rifle. I suppose like the venerable 30-06, it wasn't designed to be a 1/2" moa gun.

 

[skeeljc]

The first thing I would do with a factory Remington 700 is epoxy bed it. You will be surprised at the improvement a good bedding job makes.

 

[Kermit in Va.]

Don't give up on the 280 ...so quick...lol
Good cal...

 

[VaniB]

The first thing I would do with a factory Remington 700 is epoxy bed it. You will be surprised at the improvement a good bedding job makes.

Yep. While I don't necessarily "epoxy" my guns, I do pillar & bed them ....if they're keepers. This is my 6.5CM. Has a Brux barrel. I reshaped a Fajen stock with autobody glass. Made this as a long distance varmint shooter and so it weighs too much for anything except varmint.

 

[Bc'z]

"Hunting rifles" generally don't translate to 1/2" MOA rifle. I suppose like the venerable 30-06, it wasn't designed to be a 1/2" moa gun.

I gotta laugh at a 06' is a half inch gun.
It'll easily shoot 2's & 3's.
I'm distraught cuz I can't seem to get mine in the 1's.
Guess it's time to see how a 185vld will shoot, or possibly a lapua scenar.

 

[VaniB]

I gotta laugh at a 06' is a half inch gun.
It'll easily shoot 2's & 3's.
I'm distraught cuz I can't seem to get mine in the 1's.
Guess it's time to see how a 185vld will shoot, or possibly a lapua scenar.

I don't doubt that a 30-06 can't be a 1/2" shooter..... or a 280Rem, or that my stock 270Win barreled action can't do it. (seen in my OP photo) But, LA guns seldom come out of the factory box that way. People that shoot for 1/2" MOA or better from factory start with the likes of a 222Rem, a 243 or a 22-250, maybe a 260 or 308. Am I right? I'm just itching for somebody to show me tight 100yd clusters with a 280, or how bout my 270Win factory barreled action. Wouldn't that be convenient since I have one already!!!!! lol.

 

[VaniB]

I gotta laugh at a 06' is a half inch gun.
It'll easily shoot 2's & 3's.
I'm distraught cuz I can't seem to get mine in the 1's.
Guess it's time to see how a 185vld will shoot, or possibly a lapua scenar.

BC, the bottom line is that I'm sure the 30-06, 270, or 280 cartridges would all shoot sub 1/2MOA out of a properly smithed rifle with a Bartlein barrel and carefully crafted handloads. But a "factory" Rem700 is the challenge.

 

[Bc'z]

I don't doubt that a 30-06 can't be a 1/2" shooter..... or a 280Rem, or that my stock 270Win barreled action can't do it. (seen in my OP photo) But, LA guns seldom come out of the factory box that way. People that shoot for 1/2" MOA or better from factory start with the likes of a 222Rem, a 243 or a 22-250, maybe a 260 or 308. Am I right? I'm just itching for somebody to show me tight 100yd clusters with a 280, or how bout my 270Win factory barreled action. Wouldn't that be convenient since I have one already!!!!! lol.

Ok I'll bite, this was shot with my bone stock outta the box 06' before the overhaul.

I'm pretty sure a 280 would be a breeze to tune, as I believe the .284 bullets might fly a bit better than the .30's

 

[VaniB]

Ok I'll bite, this was shot with my bone stock outta the box 06' before the overhaul.
View attachment 1219116
I'm pretty sure a 280 would be a breeze to tune, as I believe the .284 bullets might fly a bit better than the .30's

I've concluded that the bottom line is, if I want the best chances of 1/2" accuracy in a factory rifle , the 308 is it. Doesn't mean the other cartridges can't do it, just that the 308 gives better chances to get you there faster.

I'm planning on making this my last post in this thread, as I don't want to be an attention whore beating a
dead horse. This guy "Bart B" knows something about the 30-06 and the 308 and has the historical statistics to back it up. Look at the credentials at the bottom of his post below.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
By BartB of The Firing Line Forums; https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527914&page=2

"The 7.62 NATO case was made with sharper shoulder angle to minimize shoulder setback from impact from bolt closure and firing pin forces. Improved accuracy due to more consistent primer performance. .30-06 cases often had shoulder setback's of .006" when chambered and fired. Round developed from .300 Savage cases bought from Winchester and Remington. Shorter, fatter powder charges burned more uniformly..308 match ammo made by Western Cartridge Company (headstamps WCC58 with 200-gr. FMJBT and WCC60 with 197-gr. HPBT) was most accurate commercial match ammo ever made.Sierra’s new 168-gr Int’l bullet shot most accurate in their rail guns from .308 Win. barrels. First 30 caliber cartridge to shoot repeatable sub 2/10ths inch groups in their 100 yard test range. First ever to shoot some test groups under 1/10th inch. Sierra then used .308 cases to test all 30 caliber bullets 180-gr. and lighter. Commercial sporting rifles chambered in .308 shot more accurate than those in .30-06 used to develop load data for their 30 caliber bullets used in the .308. All from Martin Hull, Sierra's first ballastic tech who loaded and tested the ammo used for their bullets.US Army 300 metre free rifle teams used .308's in late 1950's to win Olympic and other international matches; was the most accurate centerfire round they tested. Winchester made solid bottom single shot M70 receivers with oval loading port on right side for their free rifles. Better accuracy than any other cartridge they used.Ferris Pindell (Sierra Bullets’ tool & die maker) used .308 with 168's to win benchrest matches in late 1950's. Shorter, fatter case accuracy was his and Dr. Palmisano basis for their PPC ones starting in 1974..308 first used in 1963 at NRA high power Nationals winning the championship.Lake City and Frankfort arsenal’s 7.62 NATO XM/M118 match ammo bested M72 30 caliber stuff smaller many-shot test groups in late 1963. 2.16" mean radius (about 6.5" extreme spread) for M72 versus 1.82" mean radius (about 5.5" extreme spread) for M118. Many dozens of shots per test group were shot. Ballistics engineer at Lake City arsenal told me in the early '70's the M118 match stuff was typically 25% more accurate overall than the M72 match ammo.In late 1963, several dozen top ranked (best of the master classified) high power rifle competitors rebarreled their match-winning record-setting Win. 70's from .30-06 to .308 Win. Best accuracy with .30-06 and Sierra’s newest and most accurate 168's and 190's was 5 to 6 inches at 600 yards. Same quality barrels in same Win. 70 long actions built in 1952 for the .308 with ½ inch spacer in magazine and on extractor clamping ring, most shot 4 to 5 inches, some in the 3 to 4 inch range and a few under 3 inches.1964 to 1965, virtually all the high power bolt action match rifle records set with the .30-06 gave way to the .308 cartridge besting them. .308's better accuracy caused too many unbreakable ties on the old military/NRA high power V-bull targets. USN’s and USAF’s 7.62 NATO converted Garands built identical to the .30-06 ones shot 20 to 30 percent smaller groups in their 300 yard test range.NRA changed 200 to 600 yard high power targets’ scoring ring sizes to smaller ones in 1966. The 1000 yard target’s rings were reduced in 1972 as the .308 accuracy at long range out scored the .30-06.Machine rest tests of .308 reloads at 600 yards in 1971 were 1/3 the size of anything the .30-06 ever produced. Match bullet weights up to 250 grains have been used with much success in competition..30-06 was allowed for use in Palma matches from about 1989 to 1992. Nobody built one that consistently out scored the .308's.Virtually all the “most accurate” cartridges use powder charge weights equal to 1 grain for each square millimeter of the bore’s cross sectional area. Both PPC ones used in benchrest and the .308 are probably the best examples.Non-believers of the above can contact those still alive of the dozens that did the tests, won the matches and set the records in the first 10 to 15 years of the .308's use in shoulder fired rifle matches by switching from the '06 to the .308 then hear it directly as I did. I've been there, done that and heard their own experiences after watching them do it learning how to do it as well.Meanwhile, chamber a barrel with a .30-06 reamer with a 1 degree leade angle and it'll shoot almost as accurate as a .308._________________"

_US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 163Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team MemberNRA High Power Master & Long Range High MasterNRA Smallbore Prone MasterLast edited by Bart B.; July 1, 2013 at 11:51 AM.

 

[VaniB]

Bye y'all. Thanks again. If you like, read the link from "Bart B" I copied and pasted above in post #51.

 

[Will Henry]

I have heard, time and again, about the blow of the firing pin setting the shoulder back and it is, simply put, BS. The firing pin does not drive the case forward with enough force to set the shoulder back, regardless of the cartridge. Having said this, I fully agree that the 308 is, ultimately, more accurate than the 30/06. WH

 

[Lucky Shooter]

I remember from a long time ago, American Rifleman showed pictures of
test targets-----many rounds on target------for 308 and 30-06.

I was shattered to learn that the 308 "shot better" than the 30-06.

Thankfully, I've learned a little over the years and wouldn't hesitate
to use a 308 for hunting. The rounds that sprang from the 398 aren't
very shabby either.

A. Weldy

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The biggest factor is barrels and factory barrels are a crap shoot. There are good ones that will do what you're asking..and there are duds.

For the money and for meeting your stated needs, I'd buy a Wilson barrel and have it chambered up. It should easily meet your needs with far better odds of not being a dud than a factory Remington barrel. Another option is a Remage "prefit".

Your caliber choices are all good. I have a 280 Ackley with a PacNor that shoots way better than it should for a true hunting rifle. It routinely shoots 3 shot groups in the .3s with Berger 168 hunting vld's.

I'm in the finishing stages of a 7mm-08 hunting rifle with a Wilson barrel. It's gonna be a beauty and I have no doubt that it'll meet my needs, which are similar to yours. I could've spent more on a barrel but being a true hunting rifle, I feel like there are more important factors than even a barrel, to shooting in the 1/2" range. Any decent barrel should suffice for 1/2" standards. IME, Wilson is more than sufficient for that.

On my comp rifles, I only buy the best of the best but I consider a hunting rifle that shoots in the 1/2" range as very sufficient and any good barrel with good loads should be more than capable..even a good factory one.