What is a 1/2 moa rifle?

[MarkS]

mram10,

First of all, what type shooting are you doing? What kind of groups do you get at short range, 100 or 200 yds? There are a lot of factors in shooting long range, wind, light, rest, etc. If I put 5 in 5" at 800yds, and dropped one 10" low, I would ask " what did I do". Was it my hold, did I upset the rest, did that round have less powder in it. Did I get all the rounds down range under the same condition? +1 on what dkhunt14 said.

Mark Schronce

 

[6xcshooter]

how to get rid of fliers. start with 50 brass . shoot a 5 shot group if any fliers throw that brass away, continue doing this with 9 more groups. then reload the unflier brass then repeat the group shooting throw away flier brass method. continue to do this till you have gotten rid of all the flier brass and usually you will have one single brass left and wa la you have gotten rid of all the brass that were fliers. lol

 

[CoverDog]

mram10..... I think your a little confused in thinking that guys shooting a 1/2"moa have 3,5,10 shots on a target that can be covered with a dime at any distance. A 1/2 MOA (.5235") at 100yds will be covered with a dime. At 200yds a 1/2MOA is 1.047" center to center, at 300 it's 1.57", 400 it's 2.094" and up to 1000yds which would be approx. 5.235" center to center.

All the above figures represent what would be considered a 1/2" MOA gun. If I have mis-stated anything please correct me so as not to give mram10 any wrong information.

 

[mram10]

mram10,

First of all, what type shooting are you doing? What kind of groups do you get at short range, 100 or 200 yds? There are a lot of factors in shooting long range, wind, light, rest, etc. If I put 5 in 5" at 800yds, and dropped one 10" low, I would ask " what did I do". Was it my hold, did I upset the rest, did that round have less powder in it. Did I get all the rounds down range under the same condition? +1 on what dkhunt14 said.

Mark Schronce

Shooting? Just laying prone with my fist as the rear support and a bipod on the front off the ground.
100-200? Not sure. I start at 300 then move to 600, 800 and 1000.
All the rounds were sent before sunrise with no wind and temp within 5 degrees (50-55f)

 

[mram10]

mram10..... I think your a little confused in thinking that guys shooting a 1/2"moa have 3,5,10 shots on a target that can be covered with a dime at any distance. A 1/2 MOA (.5235") at 100yds will be covered with a dime. At 200yds a 1/2MOA is 1.047" center to center, at 300 it's 1.57", 400 it's 2.094" and up to 1000yds which would be approx. 5.235" center to center.

All the above figures represent what would be considered a 1/2" MOA gun. If I have mis-stated anything please correct me so as not to give mram10 any wrong information.

Coverdog,
I am quite aware what moa means I understand, you want to make sure I understand the basics prior to going further. I need to weigh 10 rounds and throw 10 rounds and test them. At least that will tell me the accuracy of the powder thrower.

 

[M14AMU]

A 1/2 MOA rifle is one in which shoots 1/4 MOA worse than another!

 

[rvn1968]

M-10,I shoot the same 99% of the time,fist in rear and a Harris up front.My major upgrade was a quality mat from Midway.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

I have loaded and fired more than 40Krds of centerfire rifle since buying my first Rockchucker in '76 and since replacing it because of some wear. Thousands and thousands of rounds in the dog towns over the years and always thought I was a better than average shot! That was until I started reading internet shooting forums in about 2002. I have since realized after all the posts on how accurate everyone else's factory guns and factory ammo are that I am a really really poor shot as I can't shoot near as good as most of the posters.

It seems that those 'consistent' 1/2 or less moa factory rifles or custom barrels DO NOT reside in my safe like they do many others! I mean I have shot numerous sub 1/2 moa groups but not nearly as many as most with lesser equipment and especially less experience! After years of reading shooting forum 'facts' I have submitted to the fact that I will always suck at shooting and will NEVER EVER honestly be able to type the "all day long" in my posts that so many others have the pleasure of doing!

 

[M14AMU]

I have loaded and fired more than 40Krds of centerfire rifle since buying my first Rockchucker in '76 and since replacing it because of some wear. Thousands and thousands of rounds in the dog towns over the years and always thought I was a better than average shot! That was until I started reading internet shooting forums in about 2002. I have since realized after all the posts on how accurate everyone else's factory guns and factory ammo are that I am a really really poor shot as I can't shoot near as good as most of the posters.

It seems that those 'consistent' 1/2 or less moa factory rifles or custom barrels DO NOT reside in my safe like they do many others! I mean I have shot numerous sub 1/2 moa groups but not nearly as many as most with lesser equipment and especially less experience! After years of reading shooting forum 'facts' I have submitted to the fact that I will always suck at shooting and will NEVER EVER honestly be able to type the "all day long" in my posts that so many others have the pleasure of doing!

SDWhirlwind

Well Hells Bells man...there's your problem! 40K over 37 years ain't but a little over 1000 rds per year!! Hellsfire....I shoot THAT MANY per month...with a Sharps!!

 

[Bradsb]

I don't know why everyone wants a 1/2 inch rifle? At my local gun shop I overheard two gentleman talking about how they have factory rifles that shoot "through the same hole all day long." I want a rifle like that!!!!! Does anyone know where I can find one? The guy's that have them wouldn't talk to me anymore when I asked them how I could get one. I even offered to buy their one hole rifles. They wouldn't sell!!!!

 

[SDWhirlwind]

SDWhirlwind

Well Hells Bells man...there's your problem! 40K over 37 years ain't but a little over 1000 rds per year!! Hellsfire....I shoot THAT MANY per month...with a Sharps!!

LOL, Well if I wasn't so lazy and would go through my loading logs and recalculate as the last time was in 03 I think I have probably loaded about 90 K. Some 12ga when I was younger and 10-12K of pistol rds. Also have loaded for some family and friends over the years which are in that figure. So I stated 40 K so I wouldn't be called a liar and have to prove it with a total of each and every caliber and round! lol

Haven't shot more than 200rds on pdogs the last 2yrs because of so many out of staters and either no pdogs or wild as all get out pdogs. Also the popularity of coyote hunting and everyone owning an electric call and a video tape of how easy it is has left 'wiley' just a bit skittish! So other than target shooting I probably don't hit 1K rds a year anymore unless I count rimfire. Also having no wife to burn ammo the last 10yrs has left me with a lot less time at the press and components aplenty!

Guess my point was the time I have spent at the loading press and behind a good rifle has been a waste compared to the internet afficianado's and how good they are with little to no experience assembling accurate ammo. The elusive "consistent 1/2moa or less" rifle so common on the net does not frequent my safe or shooting bench! Just confusing if it is my rifle, my ammo or my skills or all of the above that leave me so far behind in real life??

 

[Eddie Harren]

Dennis, have you dug out from under all that snow yet?

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Dennis, have you dug out from under all that snow yet?

Doc
Yea, as far as being able to get out and get somewhere most of the 24-30" we got is gone. Claimed 2.78" of moisture from the Friday/Sat fiasco last week. Then another 1.4" or so Sunday night and yesterday. Nothing but mud, mud and more mud around here. Line crews are having a heck of a time. Roughly 6,300 poles down in western SD with a reported 4K in Perkins county here where I am!

Me and neighbor hauled 3 pickup loads of branches/trees from his yard and 3 from mine and I have at least 1 left. No confirmed number of cattle lost yet. Uncle in Corson county knows he lost 100 head for sure but with them all he and others have on the National Grasslands there is no solid count yet. Confirmed at least 150hd in a 16K acre pasture just south of Lemmon here. Gent just east of town a mile lost 7 horses and neighbor down home south of town lost 16 or 17 of the 19 head he had. Never seen horses lost ever in these parts from storms? Guess not enough winter hair yet, the cold rain prior, the several feet of wet snow and 40-60 mph winds was the perfect combination.

Haven't heard from anyone yet on deer and pheasants did. Most too busy yet with livestock and getting power. Some still out after 12 days but the line crews have done super considering conditions and circumstances. Converted logging skidders, skid steers with tracks snowcats etc for a great deal of it! Very sad for the livestock loss and what some ranchers will do. Some near 100% loss and at $1600+ per head nowdays that may be the straw that brakes the camel's back if they have much debt!

 

[xswanted]

At the gun shop I work at darn near everyone has a gun that shoots a group the "size of my thumbnail" or able to cover it with a dime. They've all shot coyotes at 900+ yards as well. I suck at shooting compared to these guys but I have shot a decent group here and there. The best shooter that comes in, he can hit a nickle every time at 400. Guy must be darn good.

To me, a half minute gun would be one that can consistently shoot in that range with an experienced shooter. I don't think there's a LOT of them out there, but they exist.

 

[Trapper243]

Many years ago I worked a pre deer season sight in day at the local gun club. That was when I first got a good look at some really "great" shooting guns. I watched people shoot all day long. I would bet the average group was closer to 4 inches at 100 yards, and I am being kind.

 

[BoydAllen]

In the course of this thread, I think that there have been two likely causes of the dropped shots identified. First of all the thrown charges. On that, you might want to do a little research on scale tuning, since I am told that the usually repeatability of balance scales is not good enough for 1,000 yards, and I know that I have made my scales work much better by doing some tuning. The second issue is how the rifles are being shot. Off of a bipod with one's fist as a rear support is probably more challenging than off the bench, or off of a front rest and rear sandbag on the ground, and I think that shooter induced errors are more likely. As to the broader question about what constitutes a half inch rifle, it depends on the standards of the person that you ask. Most non competitors are talking about that group that they carry in their wallet, that was shot when the stars were aligned and the wind blew one in. (been there done that) This is the common meaning and situation. For serious types it would mean that the rifle is expected to perform at half inch or better, based on previous experience, and if it does not, an investigation as to why would be in order. (current situation) Best advice, keep your best group in your wallet, and don't take it out around serious shooters. It's a sort of when in Rome thing.

 

[Benjerman08]

If the shot previous to the "flyer" was good and the shot after it was good, I like to put that case in my pocket or somewhere other than with the rest of the shot brass (a sharpie marker words good too). It then gets to sit in a seperate container in my reloading room marked "flyers" with others like it. At some point when I get at least a dozen of these, I will prep and load them up again. I then shoot 2-3 normal non flyer loads to get a group going, then the flyer loads. If they still are erratic in any way, they get to go into the trash can or a nice badger hole or set free into the sagebrush. Most of them will indeed be fine though and can be attributed to gun handling or reloading. An article was wrote on this years back about case sorting at 1k. It seems to work really good for me.

 

[Area Man]

Reading this thread has made me feel better. My friend and I discuss "internet accuracy" and "actual accuracy", all day long!

I had my old Remington M700 VLS in .243 Win sent off and a Shilen barrel installed on it last winter. Since then, I have been trying really hard to see what accuracy I can get out of it at 100 yd BR. I've been using wind flags and working on my technique. Due to a scarcity of powder and good bullets, I've shot a lot of loads that weren't my "pets" and tried to develop new pets.

I have tracked every round and every group and included every "flyer". The only groups I haven't counted were some first groups after I removed copper from the barrel and a few when goofing around at long range. I have shot a number of sub 0.5" groups, and some sub 0.3" groups. I just checked my log and I have"counted" 99 groups of 5 shots. 495 rounds out of a total of 619 fired in the Shilen barrel are included in the "record". The average of the 99 five shot groups is 0.728".

I think I can claim to have a sub 3/4" rifle and technique. Now if Bubba can pull a Remington or Browning or Savage off the gun store shelf and shoot sub 1" groups (much less 0.5") groups off the hood of his truck, "all day long" I'll buy the damn gun for him.

 

[hogpatrol]

I have a heavy barrel .20 practical and it'll shoot vermin "all night long". :-X

 

[NWnewguy]

I had a Rock River 24" 1-12TW AR with the Wylde chamber and a Jewell trigger; that thing would actually shoot the 45grHP Winchester Walmart stuff at or slightly below 1/2" nearly every time. I just hated cleaning that thing. I will take an accurate bolt rig over that cleaning regimen any day. None of them have shot factory stuff that well though.

Most of my fliers went away when I switched from LC brass to Lapua. By the way if you don't like to spend money on 223 brass, don't try the Lapua 223 the first time. After you see how much better it is, you won't be able to resist buying more. I guess the PDogs don't notice much difference though.