When You SHOULD Neck Size

[CharlieNC]

With one exception I have found FL sizing has been necessary to assure the headspace (HS) does not get too long and cause tight chambering, or worse yet stuck cases after firing. However for several years I have found more consistent HS on my 223 Ftr brass when I neck size only using the Lee Collet Die (LCD). Results of a current, thorough analysis follow.

Brass was annealed and cleaned, followed by neck sizing using the LCD. As a reference the chamber "zero" HS measures 1.4610 as determined using the soft seated primer method. For the current batch of 350, every one was measured and ranged from 1.4595 - 1.4605. Historically I have never been able to achieve this level of consistency via FL sizing. In the past I have only utilized a decent sample size for this determination, which resulted in both good accuracy and chambering performance. These days, with extra time available I decided to carry out the 100% measurement on a goodly number for a higher level of assurance.

YMMV, but for me the LCD provides much more consistent HS uniformity than FL sizing on the 223.

 

[K22]

This topic has been beaten to death but that's ok, no problem. I'll give you my take on this issue having reloaded for close to 50 years and loading for at least 10 different 223 bolt rifles. Yes, I love the 223 Rem. Also, just because I've reloaded that long does not make me an "expert", just a guy with a lot of experience.

I've used neck sizing, partial sizing and full sizing in various standard calibers like the 223 Rem, 243 Win, 308 Win to name a few.

Because you are not touching the shoulder during neck sizing, the case headspace measurements will generally be more consistent than full sizing. But the problem becomes that the case not only expands length wise but also radially.

Also at some point, cases have to be full sized for most rifles so that they will chamber without problems and not create excessive wear on the bolt lugs. This is further complicated by the fact that the need and interval to FL size may not be consistent even within a group of cases dedicated to a specific rifle which you are obviously doing if your are neck sizing. In other words, it's difficult to accurately predict when you need to full size. Then there is the issue of consistency some time neck sizing / sometime full sizing.

This is not an functionality issue if you're just a range shooter but if you're a hunter or competitor, the last thing you want is to have a round not chamber during a hunt or competition. And at least for me, I do not want to have to check every round I reload in the rifle chamber to verify that it's chambers properly.

Like many reloaders of the 60's and 70's, I believed the myth that neck sizing compared to full sizing produced longer case life and better accuracy. After loading thousands of center fire rifle cartridges, I can attest that neither assertion is true IF you are full sizing correctly meaning bumping the shoulder back only enough to provide for easy chambering which typically translates to .001 to .002" shoulder bump on bolt rifles.

There may be too much attention being paid these days to "measurements" rather than performance results on target. My case head space measurements vary slightly also when full sizing but I've yet to notice any change in performance on target. Granted, I'm only shooting at distances 275 to 300 yards so I'll defer to the long range guys when it comes to long distance shooting but the precision shooters I know all full size with a .001 / .002 shoulder bump.

For a measurement to have value, I believe there needs to be some proven cause and effect result in performance. For example, there's a lot of attention paid to run out. In theory it makes sense to minimize this measurement but I've yet to see it translate to performance on target. So my question is do your neck size reloads shoot noticeably better than your full sized loads?

 

[milboltnut]

As long as you keep up with chambering... then neck size away. I can give you an example of a fire forming nut, neck sizing nut, called my father in law. I borrowed his Win 88 to deer hunt one year. Meeting him down the ridge with my deer, I told him that I had hard extraction. He brushed it off. What good is it to have a lever action that has hard extraction? I didn't even bother making that point, considering his attitude.

 

[bozo699]

I’ve got 6brx Lapua cases with 30+ Sizing on them with no issues and my shoulders usually don’t vary more than .0005 if your f/l die is sizing the brass correctly ,.... the correct amount and you lube your cases correctly (many don’t!) there is zero reason to nk size! The key to accuracy is consistency and you can be consistent with f/l sizing but you cannot be with nk sizing.
Wayne

 

[CharlieNC]

This topic has been beaten to death but that's ok, no problem. I'll give you my take on this issue having reloaded for close to 50 years and loading for at least 10 different 223 bolt rifles. Yes, I love the 223 Rem. Also, just because I've reloaded that long does not make me an "expert", just a guy with a lot of experience.

I've used neck sizing, partial sizing and full sizing in various standard calibers like the 223 Rem, 243 Win, 308 Win to name a few.

Because you are not touching the shoulder during neck sizing, the case headspace measurements will generally be more consistent than full sizing. But the problem becomes that the case not only expands length wise but also radially.

Also at some point, cases have to be full sized for most rifles so that they will chamber without problems and not create excessive wear on the bolt lugs. This is further complicated by the fact that the need and interval to FL size may not be consistent even within a group of cases dedicated to a specific rifle which you are obviously doing if your are neck sizing. In other words, it's difficult to accurately predict when you need to full size. Then there is the issue of consistency some time neck sizing / sometime full sizing.

This is not an functionality issue if you're just a range shooter but if you're a hunter or competitor, the last thing you want is to have a round not chamber during a hunt or competition. And at least for me, I do not want to have to check every round I reload in the rifle chamber to verify that it's chambers properly.

Like many reloaders of the 60's and 70's, I believed the myth that neck sizing compared to full sizing produced longer case life and better accuracy. After loading thousands of center fire rifle cartridges, I can attest that neither assertion is true IF you are full sizing correctly meaning bumping the shoulder back only enough to provide for easy chambering which typically translates to .001 to .002" shoulder bump on bolt rifles.

There may be too much attention being paid these days to "measurements" rather than performance results on target. My case head space measurements vary slightly also when full sizing but I've yet to notice any change in performance on target. Granted, I'm only shooting at distances 275 to 300 yards so I'll defer to the long range guys when it comes to long distance shooting but the precision shooters I know all full size with a .001 / .002 shoulder bump.

For a measurement to have value, I believe there needs to be some proven cause and effect result in performance. For example, there's a lot of attention paid to run out. In theory it makes sense to minimize this measurement but I've yet to see it translate to performance on target. So my question is do your neck size reloads shoot noticeably better than your full sized loads?

K22 I would not say my neck size loads in 223 shoot any better than FL size, only more consistent measurements, both shoot well. Doing this for competition begining 2016 I have not experienced any problems at all. I would say the 223 is obviously a special case; and one intent of the post is to try different things yourself to find out what works best. I FL size everything else, and if it was better in the 223 would switch it as well.

 

[milboltnut]

I’ve got 6brx Lapua cases with 30+ Sizing on them with no issues and my shoulders usually don’t vary more than .0005 if your f/l die is sizing the brass correctly ,.... the correct amount and you lube your cases correctly (many don’t!) there is zero reason to neck size! The key to accuracy is consistency and you can be consistent with f/l sizing but you cannot be with neck sizing.
Wayne

other than the last sentence you're right on. Unless I'm missing something? Other than hard chambering, what can go wrong neck sizing?

 

[bozo699]

I never said anything can go wrong,.... although there are things that can go wrong on neck sizing. I said you can’t be 100% consistent neck sizing and you can’t! But full length sizing you can be consistent and will be if you do it correctly with correctly using and adjusting your equipment.
Wayne

 

[skeeljc]

With one exception I have found FL sizing has been necessary to assure the headspace (HS) does not get too long and cause tight chambering, or worse yet stuck cases after firing. However for several years I have found more consistent HS on my 223 Ftr brass when I neck size only using the Lee Collet Die (LCD). Results of a current, thorough analysis follow.

Brass was annealed and cleaned, followed by neck sizing using the LCD. As a reference the chamber "zero" HS measures 1.4610 as determined using the soft seated primer method. For the current batch of 350, every one was measured and ranged from 1.4595 - 1.4605. Historically I have never been able to achieve this level of consistency via FL sizing. In the past I have only utilized a decent sample size for this determination, which resulted in both good accuracy and chambering performance. These days, with extra time available I decided to carry out the 100% measurement on a goodly number for a higher level of assurance.

YMMV, but for me the LCD provides much more consistent HS uniformity than FL sizing on the 223.

What are you getting for runout (bullet to case body)? Low runout equates to better accuracy, that is why people full length size.

If you bump the shoulder .001", .002" or .003" it really does not matter.

 

[milboltnut]

I never said anything can go wrong,.... although there are things that can go on neck sizing. I said you can’t be 100% consistent neck sizing and you can’t! But full length sizing you can be consistent and will be if you do it correctly with correctly using and adjusting your equipment.
Wayne

Can you fill in the gaps? Kinda left me hangin'

 

[bozo699]

I can

Can you fill in the gaps? Kinda left me hangin'

I’ll try but not 100% sure what your asking.
let’s say you only neck size,.... let’s say you have some you have loaded with 40 gr of powder som with 42,44, etc.... let’s say some have 105’s and some 115’s let’s say some are at jam and some are .060 off the lands that brass will be inconsistent!... some will chamber hard or not at all and some might go in easily,.... right?.... that’s inconsistency if,.... if you full length size every time it’s consistent. When I’m competing at 1000 yards I pray hard every guy on the line neck sizes!... unfortunately none of them do haha
Wayne

 

[bozo699]

What are you getting for runout (bullet to case body)? Low runout equates to better accuracy, that is why people full length size.

If you bump the shoulder .001", .002" or .003" it really does not matter.

That is correct as long as you pick one and there all the same
Wayne

 

[CharlieNC]

I can

I’ll try but not 100% sure what your asking.
let’s say you only neck size,.... let’s say you have some you have loaded with 40 gr of powder som with 42,44, etc.... let’s say some have 105’s and some 115’s let’s say some are at jam and some are .060 off the lands that brass will be inconsistent!... some will chamber hard or not at all and some might go in easily,.... right?.... that’s inconsistency if,.... if you full length size every time it’s consistent. When I’m competing at 1000 yards I pray hard every guy on the line neck sizes!... unfortunately none of them do haha
Wayne

Boz I have shot thousands of rounds this way without a single chambering issue, and in this example measured 100% of the 350 to confirm excellent consistency. So the concerns you express are nonexistent in this case. Again I understand and share your points for anything other than my 223, unless I am missing something?

 

[bozo699]

Boz I have shot thousands of rounds this way without a single chambering issue, and in this example measured 100% of the 350 to confirm excellent consistency. So the concerns you express are nonexistent in this case. Again I understand and share your points for anything other than my 223, unless I am missing something?

If it’s working for you my friend continue on.
Wayne

 

[milboltnut]

I can

I’ll try but not 100% sure what your asking.
let’s say you only neck size,.... let’s say you have some you have loaded with 40 gr of powder som with 42,44, etc.... let’s say some have 105’s and some 115’s let’s say some are at jam and some are .060 off the lands that brass will be inconsistent!... some will chamber hard or not at all and some might go in easily,.... right?.... that’s inconsistency if,.... if you full length size every time it’s consistent. When I’m competing at 1000 yards I pray hard every guy on the line neck sizes!... unfortunately none of them do haha
Wayne

I get ya..... When you partially FL it's .002 shouldered consistently which OAL is the same, verses just neck sizing doesn't keep the shoulder in the same spot which changes the bullet jump. I knew that, and was just dealing with different COAL, it drove me crazy until I use the Hornady head shoulders Gauge. I just forgot that fast. Had to be reminded ! LOL Goes to show, things become second nature you tend to forget why you do them. I recently just acquired the Hornady H&S kit. Works great !

 

[Ned Ludd]

In my hands, cartridge-base-to-shoulder measurements after FL re-sizing with a bushing die are one of the most consistent measurements I see. That is not to say there isn't .0005" to .001" range throughout a brass prep, there is. But the question I would ask is can you shoot a CBTS difference of half to one thousandth within a given Lot# of brass? I cannot. If it takes the same approximate amount of time/effort to FL size a case versus neck sizing only (i.e. you're running the case up into a die with your press regardless of which die you choose), why not just FL resize and be done with it? Other issue such as runout and overall precision would certainly be good reasons to evaluate and compare the two processes. However, if all else is equal and there is no discernible difference in precision between the two approaches, I just don't see any advantage in neck sizing only.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Click on the image to enlarge.

 

[JFrank]

What I've learned since becoming a AS member.

Neck sizing has potential for rounds not chambering freely.

Hard or difficult chambering upset the benchrest rifle while in the bags requiring time to adjust. and get back on target allowing condition changes = lousy score or groups= loser

Sooner or later I have to Fl size so in my quest for consistency I just Fl every time.

 

[milboltnut]

If you full length camming over, and neck size to FF'ed...... then yes from the point of FL to FF, very inconsistent ammo.

 

[CharlieNC]

I know I may be coming across as being obstinate, but really trying to make a point. In spite of what everyone believes and I generally accept, based on thousands of rounds of shooting plus many measurements the neck vs fl sizing simply does not hold true in the case of my 223. There are a number of other "every body knows" axioms which come to mind, such as the vld should be jambed or jumped a little. Last year I couldn't get decent accuracy with the 85.5 in that seating depth range so I tried the Berger seating depth test and found a very long jump offered major improvement. Way longer than most know is right. My primary underlying objective of this post was to suggest listen to the good advice you get here and other sources, but keep an open mind and test for yourself to compare options to find what works best for you.

 

[milboltnut]

some long jumps works but most don't. VLD's have and extremely long ogive and don't produce excess pressure like a standard bullet would? What's the reason why Berger suggests the seating depth they do? Most of manual OAL are inconsistent accuracy wise. Pressure spikes..... where do they come from? Barnes has a solution, grooves cut on the bottom end. As far as I'm concerned, 223 really can't be compared to medium to large capacity cartridges. I took one trip to the range to find a great load, with a Savage Stevens bolt gun. With manual OAL.