Lee Collet Neck Sizer affecting shoulder dimension
- Thread starter Argon3119
- Start date
What you need to do is set the LCD where it is not bumping the shoulder any and either reduce the diameter of your collet with sandpaper by turning it in a drill or order a smaller diameter mandrel from Lee. This will reduce your neck diameter without bumping your shoulders. On just about all my LC dies I have had to file down the mandrel with sandpaper especially if I am using Lapua brass.
vtmarmot said:
Not a dumb question at all. When using both LCD and body dies is required this is my suggestion. LCD first to pop the primer, then use body size die (check for any flakes of carbon that were loosened from inside by the body die), then go back to LCD again to uniform neck tension. A body die doesn't touch the neck but squeezing the body and shoulder can deform the brass in the neck. In one of my calibers there was a clear increase in bullet seating pressure when body sizing was done last. Easy enough to check whether it is a factor for you.
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
You are not using it correctly if it is somehow bumping the shoulder.
Argon', did you acquire the Lee collet die used? If so, that could be a source of your sorrows…
I've bought several items (here, to our shame) used, that were described as "barely used" and found out the hard, aggravating, expensive way that they were abused or "improved" by someone along the way, rendering them agony causing (and expensive) junk.
It could be that one one of the parts of the die (collet, cap, mandrel, die base, etc.) has been messed up, causing the shell holder to cram the case against the "roof" of the collet in the shoulder area.
I've bought several items (here, to our shame) used, that were described as "barely used" and found out the hard, aggravating, expensive way that they were abused or "improved" by someone along the way, rendering them agony causing (and expensive) junk.
It could be that one one of the parts of the die (collet, cap, mandrel, die base, etc.) has been messed up, causing the shell holder to cram the case against the "roof" of the collet in the shoulder area.
bigedp51
I don't have any problems with the LCD when my Rockchucker is adjusted to torque over. 
Never a problem with LCD, but it does require user to have some intuition about their use. There is no way I can think of for Lee to inform users how much pressure to use with them since all presses are different.
I offer this as a training tool to learn how much pressure is required while sizing with a LCD. Attempt to make a case with only enough tension to allow you to push a bullet in with light finger pressure. Its difficult to do and may take 10 to 20 cases before you get one right.
I offer this as a training tool to learn how much pressure is required while sizing with a LCD. Attempt to make a case with only enough tension to allow you to push a bullet in with light finger pressure. Its difficult to do and may take 10 to 20 cases before you get one right.
I use a .223 LCD for my 22 Nosler before using a Redding body die. Redding sells a 22N body die but Lee wants to make a custom LCD for it. Since the shoulder/neck junction is in a different place I had to modify the 223 LCD. Using a non-camover press you can feel the neck being sized and just a little more pressure on the press will completely size the neck. Too much pressure might squeeze brass toward the shoulder but the collet should NEVER touch the junction. I can probably grind another 0.002" or so on the bottom of the collet to get closer to the junction. Even though the case sets in the shell holder, the collet contacts the shell holder and sets the location of the neck squeeze. There is room at the top of the collet for a 1.770" case even though I trim a little less than that.
OH darn. I just looked at the date of the last post in this thread.
This might set a new record for a necro post.
OH darn. I just looked at the date of the last post in this thread.
This might set a new record for a necro post.
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Have you used the John Valentine method of adjusting your die?
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
Well, new life to an old thread 
With my modified die Nosler cases don't bottom out on the mandrel but the heavier 6mm Hagar cases do.
I guess you could come up with a way to pull the decapping pin (it's pressed in) or just just grind the mandrel down some. I have one with a broken tip that I shortened. It's also polished down a little in diameter for more tension. The washer moves the mandrel up. Grinding the bottom of the collet insert moves the neck sizing down the neck. I find that holding the sizing for a couple seconds and the brass yields and springs back less. Cold blue identifies the modified die parts.
With my modified die Nosler cases don't bottom out on the mandrel but the heavier 6mm Hagar cases do.
I guess you could come up with a way to pull the decapping pin (it's pressed in) or just just grind the mandrel down some. I have one with a broken tip that I shortened. It's also polished down a little in diameter for more tension. The washer moves the mandrel up. Grinding the bottom of the collet insert moves the neck sizing down the neck. I find that holding the sizing for a couple seconds and the brass yields and springs back less. Cold blue identifies the modified die parts.
Attachments
Sort of impossible for the shoulder to touch.
Once the steel collet touches the steel shell holder the brass case doesn't move.
The shell holder has to push on the collect to drive the fingers into the top to size the neck.
The shell holder just holds the case straight at the bottom. . You keep adjusting the die down until you get neck squeeze, then just a tad more. The case, the shell holder, and the lower collet are held in place together. Move the ram until the sizing is complete and just a little more pressure.
The brass case is totally contained inside the collet lower section and the shell holder.
The case can not move and should not see any pressure on the shoulder.
The neck/shoulder is not pushed down, just squeezed.
Push the ram and die down onto the collet/shellholder (with brass case inside) to squeeze the collet.
Once the steel collet touches the steel shell holder the brass case doesn't move.
The shell holder has to push on the collect to drive the fingers into the top to size the neck.
The shell holder just holds the case straight at the bottom. . You keep adjusting the die down until you get neck squeeze, then just a tad more. The case, the shell holder, and the lower collet are held in place together. Move the ram until the sizing is complete and just a little more pressure.
The brass case is totally contained inside the collet lower section and the shell holder.
The case can not move and should not see any pressure on the shoulder.
The neck/shoulder is not pushed down, just squeezed.
Push the ram and die down onto the collet/shellholder (with brass case inside) to squeeze the collet.
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You are correct. I had my brain working in the wrong
direction. I do use the Lee Collet die for most of my work.
For on the Lee press they tell you to screw the die down
till touching then in another turn and a half. All other presses
(I use RCBS) they say to go another half turn in. So 2 turns
in, to be sure your far enough away from cam over......And
since I have a good supply, I clean the collet die in alcohol
then a light touch of Marvel Mystery Oil.
direction. I do use the Lee Collet die for most of my work.
For on the Lee press they tell you to screw the die down
till touching then in another turn and a half. All other presses
(I use RCBS) they say to go another half turn in. So 2 turns
in, to be sure your far enough away from cam over......And
since I have a good supply, I clean the collet die in alcohol
then a light touch of Marvel Mystery Oil.
I have to keep track of my modified die for the 22 Nosler and my unmodified 223 die.
A 223 case in the modified die (collet shaved) and the shoulder hits and crushes.
Lee wanted $$ to make a special die.
A 223 case in the modified die (collet shaved) and the shoulder hits and crushes.
Lee wanted $$ to make a special die.
I never new that the Redding Body Die would bump the shoulder back. I've used one for years followed up with a forester bushing bump die deconstructed ( just the bottom of the die.) to bump the shoulder back.(.0020) I thought it just sized about 1/4" down from the shoulder on the body. Or that's all that I have ever gotten out of it on my lapua cases.
Actually you hit the nail on the head.243winxb, Not trying to be contentious here. However, attempting to put 25lbs. pressure consistently on a small fragile case like .223 will do more damage to the die (over time) then a light cam-over. At least a light cam-over keeps press handle pressure consistent and is no where NEAR 25lbs of force
When Lee first came out with the collet neck sizing die I purchased one for the Hornet and had excellent results with it. Then I purchased one for the 223 and had poor results with it. So-- I called the Lee help line and the gentleman told me thats just the way it is so I shelved the die for years. Then I read Valentines instructions and the light bulb in my pea brain went on. When coupled with a Redding body die its a combination thats pretty had to beat. Cheap mandrels and its easy to vary neck tension for best results compared to the price of bushings. Not to mention excellent concentricity without even trying.
In my opinion Lee has now ruined the collet neck sizing die by shortening the collet. I would really get a smile on my face if another manufacturer would produce a collet die coupled with a body die in a box with space for a few extra mandrels. Probably never see it because of patents.
I like the cost of going Redding Body Die, Lee Collet Die, an extra mandrel.
Even though two companies, you can buy all that from a single source.
After talking about it I went ahead and shaved almost 0.003" from the bottom of the collet tonight to get the 22 Nosler case up in the die and size right to the neck/shoulder junction.
Here is a picture, from left to right, of the 22N pushed up for contact with the shoulder (which should never happen), then sitting normally on the shell holder, and the final result. Was lucky that the 223 collect had enough room for the longer neck of the 22N. Just in case Lee changes things I have a modified LCD, an unmodified 223, and a spare. I have one each body dies for the 223 and 22N.
Here's a picture of what the Redding Body Die does.
Case on left is a 6MM HAGAR, in the middle shoulder bumped to 22 Nosler length (22 NOSGAR) with the 22N body die, and the one on the right neck sized with the LEE LCD and trimmed to length.
Even though two companies, you can buy all that from a single source.
After talking about it I went ahead and shaved almost 0.003" from the bottom of the collet tonight to get the 22 Nosler case up in the die and size right to the neck/shoulder junction.
Here is a picture, from left to right, of the 22N pushed up for contact with the shoulder (which should never happen), then sitting normally on the shell holder, and the final result. Was lucky that the 223 collect had enough room for the longer neck of the 22N. Just in case Lee changes things I have a modified LCD, an unmodified 223, and a spare. I have one each body dies for the 223 and 22N.
Here's a picture of what the Redding Body Die does.
Case on left is a 6MM HAGAR, in the middle shoulder bumped to 22 Nosler length (22 NOSGAR) with the 22N body die, and the one on the right neck sized with the LEE LCD and trimmed to length.
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