What is it about the .308 that makes it the best cartridge for any type of competition shooting?

[Mr. Ten-X]

And then came the Ruger Palma rifles....

 

[jkl]

German Salazar still has an unopened box of 92 Palma. I think it was loaded by Bob Jensen’s company. They said it was the best for the time. I would not be surprised if Mid Tompkins doesn’t have some as well in his gun room.

I always enjoy pulling up a stool and listening to the stories they tell.

John

 

[Bart B.]

And then came the Ruger Palma rifles....

......fitted with barrels made by Green Mountain barrels, half with 4 groove barrels, half with 6 grooves. In a modified M77 action. That company was making all Ruger barrels at the time. Ruger donated those 20 rifles to the US Palma Team. Nobody at Ruger knew much about Palma rifles except they shot 30 inch barrels chambered for the 308 Winchester.

Poor shaped stock for shooting slung up prone, lousy trigger, but the most accurate one tested about 2 MOA at 1000. All USA team members used their own rifles that shot issued ammo half that or better, save one. His rifle died so he shot the best Ruger.

No team member shot them again.

The USA team was offered Model 40X rifles from Remington but politely refused.

 

[Bart B.]

German Salazar still has an unopened box of 92 Palma. I think it was loaded by Bob Jensen’s company.

Yes it was.

Winchester went through a couple sets of case forming dies before cases could be made dimensionally uniform enough with a 4/10ths grain weight spread. The load selected was a Federal 210M primer under 45.3 grains of IMR4895 (metered to 3/10ths grain spread), case mouths uniformed with a Lyman M die and Sierra's 155 seated to 2.83" OAL. Two Dillonn1050 progressive machines put them together. Bullets ended up with max runout of a bit over .003"

Bob Jensed grabbed 20 rounds at random then tested them in his Winchester Palma rifle at 600 yards. All went into 2.7 inches.

One interesting thing about that bullet. Sierra 30 caliber HPMK bullets had been .3082" diameter for decades. Those 155's were .3084"

 

[Bart B.]

However, the .308 is both fatter and taller than the .223, with twice the capacity, yet has no clear on target advantage.

Why did the US Army team convince the NRA in 2012 to allow the AR10 in 308 Win be designated a service rifle so they could compete against M1A and 7.62 Garands in 1000 yard events that typically outscored their 22 caliber semiautos?

Then win and set records shooting Berger 185 VLD bullets in 308 cases at the nationals that year.

Answer: they no longer had M14NM rifles that were in good enough condition to win at long range. Of course, at short and mid ranges, 22 caliber has the recoil advantage.

 

[UltraBR30]

Yes it was.

Winchester went through a couple sets of case forming dies before cases could be made dimensionally uniform enough with a 4/10ths grain weight spread. The load selected was a Federal 210M primer under 45.3 grains of IMR4895 (metered to 3/10ths grain spread), case mouths uniformed with a Lyman M die and Sierra's 155 seated to 2.83" OAL. Two Dillonn1050 progressive machines put them together. Bullets ended up with max runout of a bit over .003"

Bob Jensed grabbed 20 rounds at random then tested them in his Winchester Palma rifle at 600 yards. All went into 2.7 inches.

One interesting thing about that bullet. Sierra 30 caliber HPMK bullets had been .3082" diameter for decades. Those 155's were .3084"

So if 2.7" was the best that ammo tested, what was the worst it tested?

 

[Jimmy James]

Late to this thread and didnt read all 8 pages of posts but to OP ?, I don't know but maybe the military and govt got it right for once. I've heard a lot of old timers disparage the 308 in favor of the 3006 but I like it just fine. My rifle smith even admitted one time that for all the 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm competition rifles he has built, none of them do anything a 308 wouldnt do just as good.

 

[Bart B.]

So if 2.7" was the best that ammo tested, what was the worst it tested?

I didn't say that was the best it tested. Didn't mean to imply that.

At the first time the ammo was shot in competition in the 1991 Rocky Mountain Palma Match at the Whittington Center, the people who shot it well shooting the best scores said it held about 3 inches at 600. Conditions were best that day for the 1000 and 600 yard 20 shot matches compared to the next 3 days when the Palma course was shot. To me that's between 2 and 4 inches. Hard to be exact just noting how far the bullet strikes from call using aperture sights.

A few had rifles mismatched to the ammo and shot big groups and low scores.

 

[Bart B.]

I've heard a lot of old timers disparage the 308 in favor of the 3006 but I like it just fine.

There's a good reason the NRA reduced high power targets' scoring ring sizes less than 3 years after the 308 was first used in 1963.

Too many unbreakable ties shot with it on the century old military A and B targets. The C target rings were downsized a few years later. All the records held by the 30-06 were soon shattered by the 308.

The best 30-06 rifles tested 5 to 6 inches at 600 yards back then. Rebarreled to 308, they tested 3 to 4 inches with the same bullets.

 

[jkl]

I was told that Mid Tompkins was one of the first to shoot a 308 in competition when the 30-06 was at it's peak. I got a funny smile when I asked him if he was credited with single handedly killed the 30 06 in NRA competition?

Then my mentor in the long range shooting world was German Salazar and he was on the other end of the spectrum on the 30-06. He wanted everyone to own at least 1 30-06 rifle! I pulled plenty of winning scores German shot with the 30-06.

Very interesting conversations.

John

 

[Bart B.]

I was told that Mid Tompkins was one of the first to shoot a 308 in competition when the 30-06 was at it's peak. I got a funny smile when I asked him if he was credited with single handedly killed the 30 06 in NRA competition?

I don't think he did it single handed as other top ranked ones followed suit. He did start the ball rolling. The next year, a Remington field rep won the Nationals shooting 308 ammo in his Winchester Model 70.

NRA rules at the 1963 Nationals stated "30 caliber" so the 300 Savage could have been used. Mid was the first and chose the 308 because it was winning so many 300 meter free rifle matches. And one of the PPC cartridge designers was shooting a 308 chambered unlimited benchrest rig taking home so many marbles. He worked at Sierra's tool and die shop and their 308 Win test barrels shot Match King bullets more accurate than 30-06 ones did.

Then my mentor in the long range shooting world was German Salazar and he was on the other end of the spectrum on the 30-06. He wanted everyone to own at least 1 30-06 rifle! I pulled plenty of winning scores German shot with the 30-06.

Oft times, folks state the Palma match at the Nationals some years later that was won with a 30-06. I know the guy who did that and the load he used was reduced shooting the heavy bullet at 308 velocities.

Some of us know that 30-06 chambers with a 1.5 degree leade (throat, if you like) can shoot darn near as precise as 308 chambers that started out with that same leade angle.