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What distance for tuner testing?

I disagree with some of the comments regarding changes in performance beteeen 100 to 600 yards. Example; I have developed loads in tuner applied barrres and non. In both cases, I arrived at an excellent load which shot at 100, then ran it at 600yard. I achieved a 100 yard "single hole" within 4-5 shots and with same load, ran it at 600 and frequently shot out spotting disc in the X ring. I'm not touting my own accomplishments, just pointing out that I achieved repeatable MOA at distances.
 
Sounds like most consider using the tuner to get a load. That is not what I use a tuner for. I use it to keep my developed load in tune when I think the gun is going away from me. If I can get good conditions I have come to like 200 yds after 15+ years with tuners on multiple guns. Of course always over flags or its worthless, or not, but you have no way of knowing.
 
Is there a preferred distance to run a barrel tuner test? I compete at 600 yd, but I don't always have prime conditions at that distance. Most targets I see posted on this topic appear to be done at 100 yds.
TIA
I don't know if my most recent "experience" starting at the NOT intended distance will be of any help since I'm not a tuner user. The rifle in this link below: https://forum.accurateshooter.com/t...heavy-gun-benchrest-agg-records-fall.4156483/

I started this rifle with seating because we had changed to a new reamer. I went out hoping to get between snow storms on a Sunday, but I have shit for luck of course. I couldn't see the hillside I set the target on from 1,000, drove to my 810 yard bench location...still no good. Drove to my 645 yard bench spot and I could make it out barely, so I set up there. This was break in/seating testing, so I made 6 12 shot ladders (4 groups of 3 each) that covered everything from 25 in to 48 jump. Cleaning between ladders, some "relays" were nearly blind and some I could aim okay. Picture below:
20250105_110253_copy_1024x1024.jpg

Anyways, when all was shot i had 3 zones that shot zeros. That prompted me to have to shoot a finer increment seating test in all 3 spots on day 2. Day 2 was clear, and I set up at 1,000 like I "always" do. Well, the one area looked great, but the other 2 wouldn't finish mid pack at a 1,000 yard match.... So I don't know if that experience will help you or not, but I guess I learned that it "might" work? I know I've had a lot of luck tuning (conventionally anyway) at the intended distance I'll be competing at.

I'm not a tuner guy though, but unlike @Canuckienns I usually just walk up to the trash can and set them in there lol.

Tom
 
I don’t recall ever having a sort range tune that held up that great at mid range or long range.
If I had to choose than I would figure out a way to test at the distance I’m competing at and not waste barrel life on something I’d likely have to change or repeat anyway.

Jim
 
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I think some are confusing initial tuner testing with checking tune and making any small adjustments at your intended yardage to compete at.
The initial test at 100 shows you what to look for and how to use a tuner. It also gives you a base setting that you work from with small increments to maintain peak tune as conditions or yardages change. Simply put, the initial test is your instruction manual for tuning at all yardages. Skipping this step is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Ya still need a very good tune. I'm not suggesting tuners take the place of good load work up. Rather, I use them to maintain peak tune, not totally replace load development.
 
I will tell you that I do most of tuner testing at 100yds and most of validation and possible additional testing at 300 then 600. To be fair 1000yds has too much noise so I mostly go with my data from 600 and then shoot 10-20rd groups at 1000 but it's not really testing as much as validation.
I had done only 100 until recently. I did 300 in good conditions and really amplified my readings...Still relatively new to them, but same hole at 300 in my dasher. Love that feeling! Like videos John.
 
I think some are confusing initial tuner testing with checking tune and making any small adjustments at your intended yardage to compete at.
The initial test at 100 shows you what to look for and how to use a tuner. It also gives you a base setting that you work from with small increments to maintain peak tune as conditions or yardages change. Simply put, the initial test is your instruction manual for tuning at all yardages. Skipping this step is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Ya still need a very good tune. I'm not suggesting tuners take the place of good load work up. Rather, I use them to maintain peak tune, not totally replace load development.
Mike,
This is absolutely correct, from my experience's. Good stuff indeed.
CW
 
I will share a story with all of you in hopes it helps the OP with his question.

Several years ago, I purchased a good F-Class rifle.

It was a 284 and after a fashion, I re-barreled it to a dasher. Dan Dowling chambered it with his proven 104 FB reamer.... I believe it is the same reamer used to chamber Mr Schatz's barrel..... the one that put the dasher on the map.

This gun shot amazingly well, you could test and see little stuff at distance. It really was awesome. I did not know how awesome it was until I sold it and bought the latest flavor of the day.

Deep creek tracker stock (Green and black Wheeler paint scheme)
Panda Action with two bolts
B&A trigger
Krieger barrels
Kelbly's rings
Ezell tuner
March HM 10-60

I won more than my share of IBS (local) 600 yard matches with it and after it had about 850-900 rounds on the barrel, I decided to get another barrel chambered and ready to go. I also had a 300 WSM barrel chambered for it at the same time.

I decided to take all my loading malarkey to the range and develop a load there in one day, it proved to be a dandy idea. I actually think @BoydAllen made the suggestion and about the hundredth time he told me that, I decided to try it.

So, with a whole day to play, I set up my gear at the range and went to work. Having already been successful with that barrel/chamber combo, I focused on that combination....... and it worked. It was about 32grains of H4895 with a Vapor Trail Bullet as I recall. After getting seating, powder, bushing, mandrel, and primer combination sorted out, I adjusted the tuner one mark in each direction to see if I could see any improvement. Nope, tuner set at zero where it was during tuning, was the best setting.

I screw the tuner all the way in and back it off a half a turn, if zero in close, I turn it to zero and leave it alone until I need it. If zero is less than 1/2 turn out, I give the tuner another full spin and bring zero to the top. I always tune with zero at the top dead center.

I shot several groups at 600 and the gun was on point, shooting sub 2" groups at 600 is good, actually really good here in Western Colorado.

Mike had explained his "Tuner Test" to me, so I cleaned the barrel and shot Mike's tuner test at 600 yards.
It did not look as pretty as the 100 yard test he uses as an example but after sending him pics, the pattern was still there.

Satisfied with my results, I loaded up all my "stuff" and headed to the 100/200 short range BR range 1/4 mile down the road.

I had just started shooting a PPC and thought they sucked!!!! What a POS! Couldn't keep that thing in tune to save my backside. So, I wanted to see if my hot shooting dasher could group at 100/200 like it does at 600 yards.

I set up all my gear and loaded some test ammo. Same rest, rifle, everything the same.
I shot a very embarrassing target. It fully looked like a bucket of yuck blew up on it. Awful indeed!!!

So, I set up to retune (powder, seating, etc.) at 100........ but wait, I have a tuner......

I loaded up the previous load and shot a three shot group, moved the tuner one mark and shot another group, so on and so forth, basically Mike's tuner test all over again.

I found a beautiful tune...... very competitive indeed. I moved the target frame to 200 yards and tried it again. The tune was good.

So I cleaned the barrel about the zillionth time for the day and loaded up more ammo. I then picked up all my gear and headed back to the 600 yard range. Knowing in my heart, I found the GOOD!

After setting up all the gear and relaxing for a few minutes knowing this could be epic, I worked up the courage to bring my best self to the line and shoot groups that would blow the doors off all my previous accomplishments.

Epic alright, epic failure.

I shot a very ugly target, tried it again, yep..... UGLY.

Turned the tuner back to the good 600 yard mark......... knotted up. Shot it again, a dandy group.

So, fast forward a couple of months, I had won a couple of IBS matches with that barrel and life was good. I attended a short range BR match at the local club and shot my usual Poorly.... me and my PPC were not friends. This was the year that the NBRSA had pooped in somebody's cheerios and none of the clubs in the region were shooting registered matches ( I actually do not know the full story but just know the match I attended was not a registered match and it normally would have been).

After my first days poor performance, I asked the Match Director ( Tom Stiner) if I could shoot my (totally out of class) dasher in the HV match on Sunday. He said, and I quote "You better, I am tired of hearing about that *&^%$ dasher!" "This is not a registered match anyway, see you and that dasher in the morning!"

Happy as a lark, I went home and preloaded some ammo. Grabbed my stuff and loaded the truck for the match the following morning.

The following morning, I reviewed my notes in my TUNER notebook (for me, this notebook is super important), and made the adjustment I had worked out previously. The first target at 200 showed it was good. I made some errors and got caught a few times, but I did come out in first place...... I absolutely had the smallest agg shot that morning. Out of class and all that, but the tune held just fine. Just for giggles, after I shot my last record target at 200, I shot a group on my last sighter target with the 600 yard setting on the tuner and it was pure yuck.

After lunch, we moved the target frames to 100 yards and got busy.

My 100 yard performance was not near as good as my 200 yard performance was, but it was good enough that I placed in the top 3 or 4 for the grand.


Based on my experience, I shoot Mike's Tuner Test at the distance I intend to compete at. Anything less, is just being lazy or frugal or both. I remind myself all the time, there is a place for lazy and frugal, but it ain't in benchrest.

I hope this helps
CW

Edit
I have had tuners save the day plenty of times. Most every barrel I have chambered is threaded for a tuner. They work, if you are willing to put in the effort to learn how to use them.
CW
 
I will share a story with all of you in hopes it helps the OP with his question.

Several years ago, I purchased a good F-Class rifle.

It was a 284 and after a fashion, I re-barreled it to a dasher. Dan Dowling chambered it with his proven 104 FB reamer.... I believe it is the same reamer used to chamber Mr Schatz's barrel..... the one that put the dasher on the map.

This gun shot amazingly well, you could test and see little stuff at distance. It really was awesome. I did not know how awesome it was until I sold it and bought the latest flavor of the day.

Deep creek tracker stock (Green and black Wheeler paint scheme)
Panda Action with two bolts
B&A trigger
Krieger barrels
Kelbly's rings
Ezell tuner
March HM 10-60

I won more than my share of IBS (local) 600 yard matches with it and after it had about 850-900 rounds on the barrel, I decided to get another barrel chambered and ready to go. I also had a 300 WSM barrel chambered for it at the same time.

I decided to take all my loading malarkey to the range and develop a load there in one day, it proved to be a dandy idea. I actually think @BoydAllen made the suggestion and about the hundredth time he told me that, I decided to try it.

So, with a whole day to play, I set up my gear at the range and went to work. Having already been successful with that barrel/chamber combo, I focused on that combination....... and it worked. It was about 32grains of H4895 with a Vapor Trail Bullet as I recall. After getting seating, powder, bushing, mandrel, and primer combination sorted out, I adjusted the tuner one mark in each direction to see if I could see any improvement. Nope, tuner set at zero where it was during tuning, was the best setting.

I screw the tuner all the way in and back it off a half a turn, if zero in close, I turn it to zero and leave it alone until I need it. If zero is less than 1/2 turn out, I give the tuner another full spin and bring zero to the top. I always tune with zero at the top dead center.

I shot several groups at 600 and the gun was on point, shooting sub 2" groups at 600 is good, actually really good here in Western Colorado.

Mike had explained his "Tuner Test" to me, so I cleaned the barrel and shot Mike's tuner test at 600 yards.
It did not look as pretty as the 100 yard test he uses as an example but after sending him pics, the pattern was still there.

Satisfied with my results, I loaded up all my "stuff" and headed to the 100/200 short range BR range 1/4 mile down the road.

I had just started shooting a PPC and thought they sucked!!!! What a POS! Couldn't keep that thing in tune to save my backside. So, I wanted to see if my hot shooting dasher could group at 100/200 like it does at 600 yards.

I set up all my gear and loaded some test ammo. Same rest, rifle, everything the same.
I shot a very embarrassing target. It fully looked like a bucket of yuck blew up on it. Awful indeed!!!

So, I set up to retune (powder, seating, etc.) at 100........ but wait, I have a tuner......

I loaded up the previous load and shot a three shot group, moved the tuner one mark and shot another group, so on and so forth, basically Mike's tuner test all over again.

I found a beautiful tune...... very competitive indeed. I moved the target frame to 200 yards and tried it again. The tune was good.

So I cleaned the barrel about the zillionth time for the day and loaded up more ammo. I then picked up all my gear and headed back to the 600 yard range. Knowing in my heart, I found the GOOD!

After setting up all the gear and relaxing for a few minutes knowing this could be epic, I worked up the courage to bring my best self to the line and shoot groups that would blow the doors off all my previous accomplishments.

Epic alright, epic failure.

I shot a very ugly target, tried it again, yep..... UGLY.

Turned the tuner back to the good 600 yard mark......... knotted up. Shot it again, a dandy group.

So, fast forward a couple of months, I had won a couple of IBS matches with that barrel and life was good. I attended a short range BR match at the local club and shot my usual Poorly.... me and my PPC were not friends. This was the year that the NBRSA had pooped in somebody's cheerios and none of the clubs in the region were shooting registered matches ( I actually do not know the full story but just know the match I attended was not a registered match and it normally would have been).

After my first days poor performance, I asked the Match Director ( Tom Stiner) if I could shoot my (totally out of class) dasher in the HV match on Sunday. He said, and I quote "You better, I am tired of hearing about that *&^%$ dasher!" "This is not a registered match anyway, see you and that dasher in the morning!"

Happy as a lark, I went home and preloaded some ammo. Grabbed my stuff and loaded the truck for the match the following morning.

The following morning, I reviewed my notes in my TUNER notebook (for me, this notebook is super important), and made the adjustment I had worked out previously. The first target at 200 showed it was good. I made some errors and got caught a few times, but I did come out in first place...... I absolutely had the smallest agg shot that morning. Out of class and all that, but the tune held just fine. Just for giggles, after I shot my last record target at 200, I shot a group on my last sighter target with the 600 yard setting on the tuner and it was pure yuck.

After lunch, we moved the target frames to 100 yards and got busy.

My 100 yard performance was not near as good as my 200 yard performance was, but it was good enough that I placed in the top 3 or 4 for the grand.


Based on my experience, I shoot Mike's Tuner Test at the distance I intend to compete at. Anything less, is just being lazy or frugal or both. I remind myself all the time, there is a place for lazy and frugal, but it ain't in benchrest.

I hope this helps
CW

Edit
I have had tuners save the day plenty of times. Most every barrel I have chambered is threaded for a tuner. They work, if you are willing to put in the effort to learn how to use them.
CW
I told you that you have a talent for writing, and once again you have proven me correct. Well done. You are a story teller.
 
I had done only 100 until recently. I did 300 in good conditions and really amplified my readings...Still relatively new to them, but same hole at 300 in my dasher. Love that feeling! Like videos John.
Yessir! The thing to keep in mind is that as you increase distance, the effect of tune changes PROPORTIONATELY, but the "noise from wind is FARRR greater. At 300, the effect of tuner changes triples at vs at 100 but the effect of wind is roughly 9X. At 1000, windage is well over 100x what it is at 100 yards. So, ya may well get 10x the change from tuner adjustment but at the cost of 100x more noise that makes it way harder to interpret test results. Again though, when the rubber meets the road, I will make any needed small adjustment at the yardage I'll compete at. Also, there's a big difference in checking tune vs the full initial tuner test that I suggest. With it, you're reading several factors to 15 3 shot groups, which cumulatively give a base setting from which to work...vs firing a single group and just moving a mark or so if even needed, before going to record(or as near as is feasible) at long range. Checking tune or making a tweak to it is not the same as the initial test, that gives so much info to move forward with, once done. I believe that test is solid freakin gold!!
I'll edit this and post a pic of an unfired tuner test target. Every tiny detail to it matters, right down to making your own target just like it, though. It IS the shortcut. Changing or skipping anything is like tearing pages out of your owner's manual.
 

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I have come to use a tuner “upside down “ or simply come through the back door to get from tuner what typical methods won’t at times but in regard to maintaining a ever evolving tune it chasing “peak tune” I use different techniques to potentially shoot more quality target in a Row as a tuner for me at 1000 yards simply is not “fine” enough

Shawn Williams
 
I have come to use a tuner “upside down “ or simply come through the back door to get from tuner what typical methods won’t at times but in regard to maintaining a ever evolving tune it chasing “peak tune” I use different techniques to potentially shoot more quality target in a Row as a tuner for me at 1000 yards simply is not “fine” enough

Shawn Williams
You crack me up!

As you know, I am not a 1000 yard shooter.
However, at 600, I could see changes with very small movements (less than 1 mark) with my rail. It was a dasher with a 30" straight 1.250" barrel in an 8" block.

This thread has some really good info in it.

CW
 
I've not won a match yet with or without a tuner at a 1000 yards .I had a tuner put on this year . Learned this weekend that I need to make sure my tuner is on the mark that gave me the one hole group at 100 to shoot 4 and 5 inch groups at 1000 yards at the time of day the one hole at 100 was shot . If it's not on that setting it shot 11 and 12 inches . When it should have been set to one it was on zero and shooting 11 and 12 inches Saturday morning . That after noon finally came into a 4 inch group about the time I noticed it was on zero so I turned it to setting 1 right back to a 12 inch group . Went right back to zero setting next two targets was a 4 and 5 inch target. So keep notes and keep up with settings is my humble advice .
 
I've not won a match yet with or without a tuner at a 1000 yards .I had a tuner put on this year . Learned this weekend that I need to make sure my tuner is on the mark that gave me the one hole group at 100 to shoot 4 and 5 inch groups at 1000 yards at the time of day the one hole at 100 was shot . If it's not on that setting it shot 11 and 12 inches . When it should have been set to one it was on zero and shooting 11 and 12 inches Saturday morning . That after noon finally came into a 4 inch group about the time I noticed it was on zero so I turned it to setting 1 right back to a 12 inch group . Went right back to zero setting next two targets was a 4 and 5 inch target. So keep notes and keep up with settings is my humble advice .
I mostly agree but I don't get married to numbers on the tuner strictly. I read the target and make a small adjustment based on that, regardless of the number it puts me on. But you're on the right track.
 
I mostly agree but I don't get married to numbers on the tuner strictly. I read the target and make a small adjustment based on that, regardless of the number it puts me on. But you're on the right track.
Interesting.

Mike, can you Post more on adjusting your tuner based on what you are reading on the target.
I suspect this is based on your experience in shooting groups and tuning based on what you are seeing.

If you want to start a new thread, I understand. Please let me know.

Thanks in advance.
 
I don’t recall ever having a sort range tune that held up that great at mid range or long range.
If I had to choose than I would figure out a way to test at the distance I’m competing at and not waste barrel life on something I’d likely have to change or repeat anyway.

Jim
Funny, I've only shot one mid range match, my 100 yard tune was good enough to have 4 five shot groups that were smaller than everyone else.
 
OK, so "window" may be a poor term, but let me rephrase; Using the attached target as an example (not my target), I can't imagine that settings (at 100 yds) of 2-5 would be chosen over settings 9-12 (given that 4 and 11 have a bit of vertical to them), to go to 600 with. So the question is, would the 600 yd setting usually be found in the 9-12 range (+/- 1) ?
I can tell you that is mine tuner test and if you will look you will see the sign wave, Mike prefers that you do it in one straight line you can see the sine wave much better. You also prefer to be at the higher node.
 

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