What distance for tuner testing?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Interesting.

Mike, can you Post more on adjusting your tuner based on what you are reading on the target.
I suspect this is based on your experience in shooting groups and tuning based on what you are seeing.

If you want to start a new thread, I understand. Please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

I've posted targets on here many times. I looked, and you've participated in some of those threads. If nothing else here, refer back to post 16 where I described the group shape progression and lok back at targets posted by myself as well as others that support it. The most amazing thing of all about tuners is how predictable your results will be. Shoot the test target I posted and send me a pic. I'll be very happy to expain in great detail, what I'd do and why, with my tuner.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

tuning at 100yd for 600 and 1K is a waste of barrel life and components IMO
there's a reason why most of us test and tune early am and late in the day to minimize the noise, I tune in South FL heat and never preload before a match when I travel but I always ended up shooting the same load and seating depth as I tested at home.......leave your wind flags and tuners at home

Nah...tune and wind don't matter at all! Just hold in the middle and send em.

 

[Mulligan]

tuning at 100yd for 600 and 1K is a waste of barrel life and components IMO
there's a reason why most of us test and tune early am and late in the day to minimize the noise, I tune in South FL heat and never preload before a match when I travel but I always ended up shooting the same load and seating depth as I tested at home.......leave your wind flags and tuners at home

I ain't leaving home without my tuner.
CW

 

[Alex Wheeler]

No argument there, man. I've always said to test your 100 yard tune at 1000 and adjust as needed, but you'll be close there. Yes, I think it's pc at play which is yardage dependent. At least in theory and IME, that's true. You're not starting from scratch and you developed a base setting with 100x less noise from which to start. And if we're talking tuners. ya should know which way and by how much to move it, regardless of distance but based on group shapes at 100, with less noise, giving more reliable results to work from. Pretty simple in that regard.

If its your first barrel with something new I guess you can rough in at 100 to know the area to cover at 1k. But once you know the area to cover I would just go to 1k. I would say neck tension and primers are two of the biggest things that will show up at distance that are hard to see close. I had a barrel I almost pulled that shot so good at 600 it was amazing but it would not tune to less than 8" of vertical at 1k. Couldnt fix it. It was the wrong neck tension, that turned that barrel around. Never could have tuned it otherwise. Nothing has really changed over the last 15 years. We still have to tune them at 1k.

 

[quest450]

I ain't leaving home without my tuner.
CW

Clay, I love some good tuner too

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If its your first barrel with something new I guess you can rough in at 100 to know the area to cover at 1k. But once you know the area to cover I would just go to 1k. I would say neck tension and primers are two of the biggest things that will show up at distance that are hard to see close. I had a barrel I almost pulled that shot so good at 600 it was amazing but it would not tune to less than 8" of vertical at 1k. Couldnt fix it. It was the wrong neck tension, that turned that barrel around. Never could have tuned it otherwise. Nothing has really changed over the last 15 years. We still have to tune them at 1k.

I guess the difference is condition value. At 1000, we're tuning with 100x more noise than at 100. Not saying it can't change or that it can't be seen, but that one is far, far more relible for a starting point for a base tune. I don't even unstand how that's debatable. That's not the same thing as saying we should tune at 100 for any yardage, though. Still gotta test but once you are familiar with group shapes and can correlate those to tune, be it powder or tuner, distance is just a thing, minus conditions. So yes, I'd go with a base setting that minimizes conditions and then fine tune from there. Just keep doing what you're doing!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Its not really debatable. Just ask the top guys in that game what they do. I know what they will tell you.

 

[tom]

So I have tried "other ways" just fyi

 

[Mulligan]

tuning at 100yd for 600 and 1K is a waste of barrel life and components IMO
there's a reason why most of us test and tune early am and late in the day to minimize the noise, I tune in South FL heat and never preload before a match when I travel but I always ended up shooting the same load and seating depth as I tested at home.......leave your wind flags and tuners at home

I am in the same camp.......
CW

 

[JFrank]

As long as I can catch a decent morning, I’m convinced that tuning at 1k is more effective than even my 500 yard range. The key for myself is covering enough area to see the tune coming into and out of hopefully two nodes, the high node isn’t always the best either. Not sure if a tuner is going to change a steady 2.5” lg group into much smaller or steadier.

 

[tom]

At 1000, we're tuning with 100x more noise than at 100

Maybe I can help you. What did you see in your attempt when tuning at 1,000 that turned you off?

Tom

 

[Northridge]

When “noise” at yardage is mentioned more often than not it’s in reference to a negative affect or result… I find this interesting as I use the “noise “ as a tool to determine where I “do” or “don’t” want to be… embrace the noise and use it to your advantage…

Shawn Williams

 

[jackieschmidt]

As long as I can catch a decent morning, I’m convinced that tuning at 1k is more effective than even my 500 yard range. The key for myself is covering enough area to see the tune coming into and out of hopefully two nodes, the high node isn’t always the best either. Not sure if a tuner is going to change a steady 2.5” lg group into much smaller or steadier.

What are the expectations of a 1000 yard shooters shooting a 1/4 MOA Agg in a 10 to 12 mph switching wind.

 

[JFrank]

What are the expectations of a 1000 yard shooters shooting a 1/4 MOA Agg in a 10 to 12 mph switching wind.

Seems like everyone has a 1/4 minute rifle at DC so I don’t expect anything, I only hope to be competitive on my relay.

 

[Northridge]

What are the expectations of a 1000 yard shooters shooting a 1/4 MOA Agg in a 10 to 12 mph switching wind.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting tuning in a 15-20mph wind Jackie … but a range with some air coming across it is always welcome for me while shooting ladders at some point as it will reveal areas of weakness within a ladder…or more specifically ladders

Shawn Williams

 

[64Rambler]

I will share a story with all of you in hopes it helps the OP with his question.

Several years ago, I purchased a good F-Class rifle.

It was a 284 and after a fashion, I re-barreled it to a dasher. Dan Dowling chambered it with his proven 104 FB reamer.... I believe it is the same reamer used to chamber Mr Schatz's barrel..... the one that put the dasher on the map.

This gun shot amazingly well, you could test and see little stuff at distance. It really was awesome. I did not know how awesome it was until I sold it and bought the latest flavor of the day.

Deep creek tracker stock (Green and black Wheeler paint scheme)
Panda Action with two bolts
B&A trigger
Krieger barrels
Kelbly's rings
Ezell tuner
March HM 10-60

I won more than my share of IBS (local) 600 yard matches with it and after it had about 850-900 rounds on the barrel, I decided to get another barrel chambered and ready to go. I also had a 300 WSM barrel chambered for it at the same time.

I decided to take all my loading malarkey to the range and develop a load there in one day, it proved to be a dandy idea. I actually think @BoydAllen made the suggestion and about the hundredth time he told me that, I decided to try it.

So, with a whole day to play, I set up my gear at the range and went to work. Having already been successful with that barrel/chamber combo, I focused on that combination....... and it worked. It was about 32grains of H4895 with a Vapor Trail Bullet as I recall. After getting seating, powder, bushing, mandrel, and primer combination sorted out, I adjusted the tuner one mark in each direction to see if I could see any improvement. Nope, tuner set at zero where it was during tuning, was the best setting.

I screw the tuner all the way in and back it off a half a turn, if zero in close, I turn it to zero and leave it alone until I need it. If zero is less than 1/2 turn out, I give the tuner another full spin and bring zero to the top. I always tune with zero at the top dead center.

I shot several groups at 600 and the gun was on point, shooting sub 2" groups at 600 is good, actually really good here in Western Colorado.

Mike had explained his "Tuner Test" to me, so I cleaned the barrel and shot Mike's tuner test at 600 yards.
It did not look as pretty as the 100 yard test he uses as an example but after sending him pics, the pattern was still there.

Satisfied with my results, I loaded up all my "stuff" and headed to the 100/200 short range BR range 1/4 mile down the road.

I had just started shooting a PPC and thought they sucked!!!! What a POS! Couldn't keep that thing in tune to save my backside. So, I wanted to see if my hot shooting dasher could group at 100/200 like it does at 600 yards.

I set up all my gear and loaded some test ammo. Same rest, rifle, everything the same.
I shot a very embarrassing target. It fully looked like a bucket of yuck blew up on it. Awful indeed!!!

So, I set up to retune (powder, seating, etc.) at 100........ but wait, I have a tuner......

I loaded up the previous load and shot a three shot group, moved the tuner one mark and shot another group, so on and so forth, basically Mike's tuner test all over again.

I found a beautiful tune...... very competitive indeed. I moved the target frame to 200 yards and tried it again. The tune was good.

So I cleaned the barrel about the zillionth time for the day and loaded up more ammo. I then picked up all my gear and headed back to the 600 yard range. Knowing in my heart, I found the GOOD!

After setting up all the gear and relaxing for a few minutes knowing this could be epic, I worked up the courage to bring my best self to the line and shoot groups that would blow the doors off all my previous accomplishments.

Epic alright, epic failure.

I shot a very ugly target, tried it again, yep..... UGLY.

Turned the tuner back to the good 600 yard mark......... knotted up. Shot it again, a dandy group.

So, fast forward a couple of months, I had won a couple of IBS matches with that barrel and life was good. I attended a short range BR match at the local club and shot my usual Poorly.... me and my PPC were not friends. This was the year that the NBRSA had pooped in somebody's cheerios and none of the clubs in the region were shooting registered matches ( I actually do not know the full story but just know the match I attended was not a registered match and it normally would have been).

After my first days poor performance, I asked the Match Director ( Tom Stiner) if I could shoot my (totally out of class) dasher in the HV match on Sunday. He said, and I quote "You better, I am tired of hearing about that *&^%$ dasher!" "This is not a registered match anyway, see you and that dasher in the morning!"

Happy as a lark, I went home and preloaded some ammo. Grabbed my stuff and loaded the truck for the match the following morning.

The following morning, I reviewed my notes in my TUNER notebook (for me, this notebook is super important), and made the adjustment I had worked out previously. The first target at 200 showed it was good. I made some errors and got caught a few times, but I did come out in first place...... I absolutely had the smallest agg shot that morning. Out of class and all that, but the tune held just fine. Just for giggles, after I shot my last record target at 200, I shot a group on my last sighter target with the 600 yard setting on the tuner and it was pure yuck.

After lunch, we moved the target frames to 100 yards and got busy.

My 100 yard performance was not near as good as my 200 yard performance was, but it was good enough that I placed in the top 3 or 4 for the grand.


Based on my experience, I shoot Mike's Tuner Test at the distance I intend to compete at. Anything less, is just being lazy or frugal or both. I remind myself all the time, there is a place for lazy and frugal, but it ain't in benchrest.

I hope this helps
CW

Edit
I have had tuners save the day plenty of times. Most every barrel I have chambered is threaded for a tuner. They work, if you are willing to put in the effort to learn how to use them.
CW

Yes, this indeed is a help and rings an all too familiar bell. Many a range trip I needed one or two more powder charges or seating depths, or ... to round out the picture only to come back a different day with different conditions that gave a distorted pic from the range day before. I just need to take a full day and bring it all to the range to get the full picture on the same day.
I built my own tuner, spun it on a shouldered prefit barrel into an action and stock that have not seen a gunsmith and I still haven't bedded it yet and haven't moved the tuner once in just under 1500 rounds. I'm finally at the point where I almost do everything at 600 because I see enough difference between 100 or 200 and 600 in either a tweak of powder or seating depth that wasn't the best at 100 or 200, and I don't have enough free time to do it all. I haven't had my current load at 100 yds since I did the initial workup months ago, but I have been making adjustments to stay in the velocity node that works best with my rifle and I still take 3 powder charges and 3 seating depths to the range a couple days before a match (trying to match weather conditions as much as mother nature will allow) to make sure I am as in tune as I can get.
I still have a lot of "me" to work on with shooting, but here is where I'm at (my targets this time); Best group from powder and seating tweaks - this is one of the best groups I had yet, but typical is under 2" at 600 for me. How that translated to the match score where velocity was up 18 fps from testing due to match day and time being hotter and just at the upper end of where the node starts to go away. Shots 5 and 13 were missed wind calls - It's important to read ALL the flags. And chrono from the match. I am certainly seeing some PC; this is just one of many records I have where fastest and slowest are within a half inch of vertical from each other at 600.
So now I'd like to look at what impact the tuner will have and I appreciate all the input (including "just put it in the trash can").

 

[64Rambler]

I've posted targets on here many times. I looked, and you've participated in some of those threads. If nothing else here, refer back to post 16 where I described the group shape progression and lok back at targets posted by myself as well as others that support it. The most amazing thing of all about tuners is how predictable your results will be. Shoot the test target I posted and send me a pic. I'll be very happy to expain in great detail, what I'd do and why, with my tuner.

Should I see the full sine wave within 1 revolution of the tuner?

 

[Fuj]

For what it's worth......Trying a new bullet / powder combination at 300
yards in my latest 7mm cat. Previous other combos had shot decent at
100 yards, and using an Ezell Tuner settled in at mark #25, a turn and
1/2 out......I did not bother to repeat it at 300. The new combination I
left the tuner at #25 and fired 3 foulers. First 3 shot group fell into 1.25".
Second group just a little tighter but still over one inch. I then advanced
the tuner 3 full marks and shot a group that pushed 2 inch's with a little
vertical in it. I then turned it back to 25 then 3 marks below that and fired
3 more. Group showed just over and inch with a touch of horizontal. With
the barrel now nice an warm, I went back in the middle to #25 and had shot
another one inch group......I cleaned the barrel and added another down
range flag as the wind shifted coming straight in my face but switching left
at 150 yards.......Only had 7 rounds left, so fired just the one fouler. I moved
the tuner to 6 marks below #25 and 3 shots fell into a mixed bag of fliers
(I'll call it) that measured over two inches.The last three I moved the tuner
ahead to #26 and shot into one inch.......No matter what I did, this load combo
was not going to shoot better then one inch using tuner alone. However it
showed me a window to keep near one inch at 300 within 5 full numbers, on
the tuner......At no time did I do any real load development with this new combo.
Just putting a second firing on the case, seating the bullet to touch, and a low
charge weight to start. Data is data.....Another page in the log book.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

For what it's worth......Trying a new bullet / powder combination at 300
yards in my latest 7mm cat. Previous other combos had shot decent at
100 yards, and using an Ezell Tuner settled in at mark #25, a turn and
1/2 out......I did not bother to repeat it at 300. The new combination I
left the tuner at #25 and fired 3 foulers. First 3 shot group fell into 1.25".
Second group just a little tighter but still over one inch. I then advanced
the tuner 3 full marks and shot a group that pushed 2 inch's with a little
vertical in it. I then turned it back to 25 then 3 marks below that and fired
3 more. Group showed just over and inch with a touch of horizontal. With
the barrel now nice an warm, I went back in the middle to #25 and had shot
another one inch group......I cleaned the barrel and added another down
range flag as the wind shifted coming straight in my face but switching left
at 150 yards.......Only had 7 rounds left, so fired just the one fouler. I moved
the tuner to 6 marks below #25 and 3 shots fell into a mixed bag of fliers
(I'll call it) that measured over two inches.The last three I moved the tuner
ahead to #26 and shot into one inch.......No matter what I did, this load combo
was not going to shoot better then one inch using tuner alone. However it
showed me a window to keep near one inch at 300 within 5 full numbers, on
the tuner......At no time did I do any real load development with this new combo.
Just putting a second firing on the case, seating the bullet to touch, and a low
charge weight to start. Data is data.....Another page in the log book.

I preach vigorously about not moving a tuner randomly and expecting to get predictable results. I strongly encourage you to shoot the test target I posted a few posts back, exactly like it says. Work up a load, shoot the test and send me a pic. I'll go over it in detail with you, gladly. I'm happy to help but I can't make ya take me up on that offer. All I can do is offer it.

The key to using a tuner is knowing how far, which way and WHY to move it. That test shows ya every bit of that. Short range guys have loaded ammo at the range for the same reasons we might move a tuner and the good ones are not guessing. It's about reading group shapes and knowing how much to change the load to fix it. They don't randomly pick a different charge though. It's the same with a tuner, man.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Should I see the full sine wave within 1 revolution of the tuner?

Less...it should happen in about a half of a revolution on my std cf tuner. The light model takes a bit more. Just shoot that test I posted a few posts back. It covers 15 marks and the standard tuner has 32 per revolution.

edit...I went back and saw that you're using a different tuner. There can be significant differences in different designs, so there's really no way I can answer your question definitively. But, that test, or a modified, probably longer version of it, will show ya how far it is with any tuner. But it may well take some effort to get there in regard to establishing mark values and how they correlate to group shapes etc. I spent countless hours and thousands of rounds testing for these things. It wasn't a coincidence that my tuners have the number of marks on them that they do. In fact, the standard 7oz tuner has 32 and the 5oz model has 10. Big difference in that 2 ounces of difference in weight. Again, testing is why that is the case. Not random at all.