I am new to this forum. First day. I'm also very interested in the Vortex PST. So this thread caught my eye. This is the first I've heard anything negative about Vortex. After reading the exchanges, I have to say the negative carries little weight. Also am on several other forums and never read anything like this. Very disappointing. Hope this isn't the norm.
Vortex Viper vs Leupold vx-3
- Thread starter HDR
- Start date
As soon as I finish the barreled action for my new stock, I will be purchasing a PST FFP as well. I really like the new EBR-1 reticle for tactical use. The reviews look quite promising so far from some of the more knowledgeable guys over on the Sniper's Hide. Jon A did a very thorough review of it.
Well said Kenny!! To me this is one of the finest and knowledgeable sites and visit daily. Infact if I dont get on here at least once a day I feel like I have missed something the rest of the day.
As many of us have searched and searched for that holly grail of scopes that do not cost an arm and a leg along with true craftmanship, quality, dependablity, durability and of course clear glass. I searched for over a year and half before I bought. So do you think I believed all the reviews on Vortex? You bet I did.
As for my experience with Vortex I will start with the spotting scope, Nomad. The websites that Mckinney speaks of due have great reviews about said scope along with the highend birding forums. While reading about all I could find on the company as well as reputation, warranties, quality bla, bla, bla. I too thought just as Mckinney and a very large group of other people much more knowledgeble than I stating high praises for said company.
So what did I do? I jump in and made the purchase. A few days later, I recieving my spotting scope package from the UPS guy. I have the spotter in my hand over my reloading table. I unscrew the lense cap and am a bit excited to look through the lense as all the reviews going thru my head about how bright and clear the glass is....after taking off the lense cap there is a eye relief eye cup built in and you give a little twist and it extends. So I go to start to grab the eye cup and the rubber eye piece comes off in my hand?
I dont think too much about it really.....
(now in the back of my mind this little line..."you get what you pay for")
I go back to give a little twist and its stripped out? "poor quality" Now I am getting a little bent. I stop doing that and head to the back yard to look at the mountains that are about 3/4 of a mile away.
The glass dull, in fact dirty looking like dirty dish water? no matter what the power setting. With in a few minutes the zoom piece on the body siezed up making it very gritty to dail? "poor glass"
That being said, did they take the spotter back? Yes. Did they give me any grief about it? Not really. It was almost like they knew those spotters were poor quality. So would I say yes, that there customer service was good. Do they need it? Yes.
As for the rifle scopes, much the same story and yes I got my money back.
As for my earlier comments I do appologize. My comments were rude and not needed.
So you fellas go ahead and believe what ever you believe, cause no matter what, every one has there own opinion.
Good luck fellas but they will never have my business again.
Peace
As many of us have searched and searched for that holly grail of scopes that do not cost an arm and a leg along with true craftmanship, quality, dependablity, durability and of course clear glass. I searched for over a year and half before I bought. So do you think I believed all the reviews on Vortex? You bet I did.
As for my experience with Vortex I will start with the spotting scope, Nomad. The websites that Mckinney speaks of due have great reviews about said scope along with the highend birding forums. While reading about all I could find on the company as well as reputation, warranties, quality bla, bla, bla. I too thought just as Mckinney and a very large group of other people much more knowledgeble than I stating high praises for said company.
So what did I do? I jump in and made the purchase. A few days later, I recieving my spotting scope package from the UPS guy. I have the spotter in my hand over my reloading table. I unscrew the lense cap and am a bit excited to look through the lense as all the reviews going thru my head about how bright and clear the glass is....after taking off the lense cap there is a eye relief eye cup built in and you give a little twist and it extends. So I go to start to grab the eye cup and the rubber eye piece comes off in my hand?
I dont think too much about it really.....
(now in the back of my mind this little line..."you get what you pay for")
I go back to give a little twist and its stripped out? "poor quality" Now I am getting a little bent. I stop doing that and head to the back yard to look at the mountains that are about 3/4 of a mile away.
The glass dull, in fact dirty looking like dirty dish water? no matter what the power setting. With in a few minutes the zoom piece on the body siezed up making it very gritty to dail? "poor glass"
That being said, did they take the spotter back? Yes. Did they give me any grief about it? Not really. It was almost like they knew those spotters were poor quality. So would I say yes, that there customer service was good. Do they need it? Yes.
As for the rifle scopes, much the same story and yes I got my money back.
As for my earlier comments I do appologize. My comments were rude and not needed.
So you fellas go ahead and believe what ever you believe, cause no matter what, every one has there own opinion.
Good luck fellas but they will never have my business again.
Peace
Your experience could happen with any optics manufacturer. Check out some of the increasing issues with new Leupold, Weaver, Bushnell optics on the larger forums.
It is too bad that some of you will accept less from companies like Leupold, Weaver, etc and consider it an aberration, but a company that you have never dealt with before gets one chance. To each their own I guess. As stated I really do not think that the majority of Vortex owners are stupid or brainwashed, but that is your choice as to what to believe
I will not spend a dime with Weaver or Leupold until they improve their offerings. I have had enough issues with canted reticles, specks floating on the interior of the scopes that attach themselves to the lens at the worst possible moments, etc. The new M5 will hopefully change this trend for Leupold, but I have already been reading about the same old issues still being present. What was once greatness has let their market slip away from them due to arrogance and the unwillingness to listen to what people want and expect in today's optics.
Oh and Kapac, are you saying that Vortex refunded your money? Strange........ I would have thought that they would have either repaired or replaced this defective optic as this is their SOP. Never heard of a manufacturer giving an end user money when the product was purchased thru a retail operation?
It is too bad that some of you will accept less from companies like Leupold, Weaver, etc and consider it an aberration, but a company that you have never dealt with before gets one chance. To each their own I guess. As stated I really do not think that the majority of Vortex owners are stupid or brainwashed, but that is your choice as to what to believe
I will not spend a dime with Weaver or Leupold until they improve their offerings. I have had enough issues with canted reticles, specks floating on the interior of the scopes that attach themselves to the lens at the worst possible moments, etc. The new M5 will hopefully change this trend for Leupold, but I have already been reading about the same old issues still being present. What was once greatness has let their market slip away from them due to arrogance and the unwillingness to listen to what people want and expect in today's optics. Oh and Kapac, are you saying that Vortex refunded your money? Strange........ I would have thought that they would have either repaired or replaced this defective optic as this is their SOP. Never heard of a manufacturer giving an end user money when the product was purchased thru a retail operation?
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
I think he said he had Vortex send a new scope to the retailer and he asked for his money back from the retailer, not the manufacturer.
Mike, if people don't like Vortex, they must have their reasons, they don't need to convince you or anyone else, if they don't like them then that's fine and you should understand and respect that. Now, you seem to like them, so we should respect that too. But if they don't agree with you don't call them names, maybe they are just used to higher end optics than Vortex.
Leupold has as good a warranty as it gets, and Vortex warranty sounds good too, but it looks like too many people know how good Vortex warranty is in such a short period of time, so no thanks!
And as far as you owning the best $500.00 and under scope, actually I own the best scope for that price range. I bought a Leopold VX-III 4.5-14x50 mm LR for $500.00 used! ;D
So, to answer the OP's question, I would go with the Leopold.
Mike, if people don't like Vortex, they must have their reasons, they don't need to convince you or anyone else, if they don't like them then that's fine and you should understand and respect that. Now, you seem to like them, so we should respect that too. But if they don't agree with you don't call them names, maybe they are just used to higher end optics than Vortex.
Leupold has as good a warranty as it gets, and Vortex warranty sounds good too, but it looks like too many people know how good Vortex warranty is in such a short period of time, so no thanks!
And as far as you owning the best $500.00 and under scope, actually I own the best scope for that price range. I bought a Leopold VX-III 4.5-14x50 mm LR for $500.00 used! ;D
So, to answer the OP's question, I would go with the Leopold.
I am glad that you enjoy it Eric. As far as defects go, you guys need to get out more and see all of the out of the box defects that Leupold is offering their customers these days. I imagine that their customers also are enjoying that World Class warranty just as much as other scope makers. There is no way that I would buy a new one At least not for what they want for them these days.
At least not for what they want for them these days.McKinneyMike said:Your experience could happen with any optics manufacturer. Check out some of the increasing issues with new Leupold, Weaver, Bushnell optics on the larger forums.
It is too bad that some of you will accept less from companies like Leupold, Weaver, etc and consider it an aberration, but a company that you have never dealt with before gets one chance. To each their own I guess. As stated I really do not think that the majority of Vortex owners are stupid or brainwashed, but that is your choice as to what to believe
Oh and Kapac, are you saying that Vortex refunded your money? Strange........ I would have thought that they would have either repaired or replaced this defective optic as this is their SOP. Never heard of a manufacturer giving an end user money when the product was purchased thru a retail operation?
This is exactly why I did not explain myself!! It makes no difference what the out come would have been, this dude would have still talked smack.
Oh and by the way Mckinney I did get my money back!!
Now who sounds like a salesman? You.
LOL! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black If it were not for some old guard users of Leupold, I seriously doubt that a new shooter would purchase a Leupold given their dated technology, their increasing failure rates and their current pricing structure.
I would love for them to resurface again as a quality optics firm, but with their new CEO, sales are their only goal (a clothing company guy????). Sad to see what was once the bastion of quality, sliding and allowing their market to decay without seeming to care. Why else would all of the new optics companies be in the market and succeeding. Look up and down the lines at competitions these days. Ask the LEO and active duty folks that depend upon their optics what they think today.
These new and growing optics companies (not just Vortex by the way) are listening to what their customers want, they offer them at better pricing and they offer warranties as good as Leupold. Maybe some users will hang with the old guard, but the times they have changed. Again I am hopeful that Leupold wakes up and smells the coffee. We need American companies to succeed. I will not fund them though until they show that they can be a great company again. YMMV.
This is going to go on and on and on. Those that have frown up with Leupold still hold them in high regards. Those that have not are looking at what they want to meet their specific shooting needs and styles. It is a matter of preference and the final answer is where people are spending their money.
If it were not for some old guard users of Leupold, I seriously doubt that a new shooter would purchase a Leupold given their dated technology, their increasing failure rates and their current pricing structure.I would love for them to resurface again as a quality optics firm, but with their new CEO, sales are their only goal (a clothing company guy????). Sad to see what was once the bastion of quality, sliding and allowing their market to decay without seeming to care. Why else would all of the new optics companies be in the market and succeeding. Look up and down the lines at competitions these days. Ask the LEO and active duty folks that depend upon their optics what they think today.
These new and growing optics companies (not just Vortex by the way) are listening to what their customers want, they offer them at better pricing and they offer warranties as good as Leupold. Maybe some users will hang with the old guard, but the times they have changed. Again I am hopeful that Leupold wakes up and smells the coffee. We need American companies to succeed. I will not fund them though until they show that they can be a great company again. YMMV.
This is going to go on and on and on. Those that have frown up with Leupold still hold them in high regards. Those that have not are looking at what they want to meet their specific shooting needs and styles. It is a matter of preference and the final answer is where people are spending their money.
An opinion from a well respected optics reviewer about Leupold of today:
http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:leupoldredfield&catid=9
verview-of-different-companies-and-brands&Itemid=4
http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:leupoldredfield&catid=9
verview-of-different-companies-and-brands&Itemid=4I spoke of parallax issues with my Viper. Whether you know what parallax is or don't doesn't matter to me. If you want a cheap higher power scope with decent glass to shoot at 300 yards and closer (farther if you are willing and patient enough to fight the parallax)then buy a Viper. I doubt you'll find anything that'll match it for $500 new. Parallax is a very real issue and for those of us who are not extremely disciplined and careful in hunting situations and want to slip behind our rifle for a quick shot a quality scope that is predictable and repeatable is needed. I didn't say Vortex can't be used, just that if I dial the parallax out and need to change power settings a bit to get rid of a little mirage then I have a whole new battle on my hands and am dialing out parallax all over again. The lash in the side focus knob is extreme and very inconsistent depending on temperature. I believe parallax has caused a number of off placed shots on both animal and target in my earlier shooting career when I wasn't well educated on the matter. I use my Viper strictly for punching paper and also limit the yardage that it's used for as I am no professional when it comes to perfecting my shooting scenario. I trust my Leupolds even though I know they have lash in the side focus knob as well. When the hunt is more serious then I carry a Nighforce (damn the weight!) I have never witnessed any floating objects in the sight picture of my Leupolds or Weavers. I only own 1 Vortex Viper, 13 VX-3's, 6 Zeiss Conquests, 3 Nightforce NXS', and have a single 2.5-25 March on it's way. According to Mike I need to get out more and see more glass as I must be ignorant because I am not in love with my Viper. Fact is that I don't need to see a lot of glass as only the scopes I own matter to me! I don't care if Mike loves Vortex and thinks I'm a fool for liking other brands. I doubt he has owned too many scopes better than Vortex or he wouldn't be tooting their horn so loudly, just my opinion. I think my Viper is a fine scope for the money but I'd rather sell it for $350 and pay $150 on top of that for a used VX-3 LR. Who needs a holy grail of scopes for under $500 anyways? Where did this $500 price point come from anyways? I'll pay $1k for a GREAT scope or $2500 for a PHENOMENAL scope every time I can afford it. I own cheap scopes because I own cheap guns too. All of my higher end rifles wear higher end optics and as of right this moment I don't consider Vortex as one of them. I think they are what I paid for them....... a good $500 scope. Hopefully one day I'll be able to speak highly of a Vortex, I believe I've already paid them all due respect. Hopefully they listen to what I and many others have said about the parallax issue. I noticed Mike had about three words to say about it..... "it does exist". He didn't say that that particular issue may cost you the hunt of a lifetime if you depend on a $500 scope for your hunt. Beat around the bush all you want. Until Vortex makes a better scope I'll stay away from them. Many may purchase them and if you go by sheer numbers to gauge success and quality then Walmart is also the firearms and ammo superstore of the world! Show me real-world stats any day! The only numbers that matter to me are...... How many years in business, how many sold.......how many defective, how many satisfied customers and how many haters.
I think Mikes view is very clear, enough said. I'm looking to buy a new scope to mount on a savage varmint model in 308, my goal is 1000 yrds. A 1k scope is a stretch for a guy with champagne taste and a beer wallet. That's were my interest in the Viper pst ffp comes in. I really like the reticle and the fact it's in ffp. I don't think I've seen a scope with a comparable reticle and ffp near this $ range. I know it's new and I am skeptical, but this might be the one. Yeah I know it's almost 1k. I can afford to do this but ONCE. I love the advise, I'll pass on the fuss.
Again, I am sorry if this offends anyone, but continual support of one company and the bashing of another, when people are looking for honest reports of the quality and/or defects, issues or shortcomings of the two optics in question, is not only going off topic, it is completely ruining this thread.
The OP asked the users of this forum of their opinions on two optics based on their own use and experiences, not for unrelated issues to be discussed or what our thoughts were on the new CEO of Leupold or if Vortex is selling a lot of optics. And frankly, I don't give a rats ass about any of it, and I doubt anybody else does either.
Vortex will succeed as a company if they produce a quality product. If they do not, their reputation will slowly crumble and they will be just another piss poor optics company that will be compared to the likes of Barska, NC-Star or any of the other low-end optics suppliers. When they start to deliver a high percentage of junk, their warranty will mean little, especially as they are a very new company who still needs to build a reputation of quality before most of the serious purchasers (those being serious competitors in the shooting sports, serious hunters, tactical operators, or anyone else whose livelihood or life or even championship shot rests on the quality of the optic strapped to the top of his/her rifle) will ever take them seriously. Until that reputation of solid quality is built, the serious user will rely on what has been proven for many years to work when all the chips are down and it has to perform.
Leupold has built it's reputation to what it is today by delivering a high quality optic that will deliver the goods, whether on the elk hunt of a lifetime, or at the firing line of a 1000yd match. I don't think Leupold's product deserves to be picked apart in any way. Yes, as with any company they will occasionally deliver a flawed product, but as they have shown for many years, they will repair or replace the optic free of charge with no questions asked and make sure you are 100% satisfied. And that, my friend, is the bottom line.
And on one final note, nobody asked for a sales pitch. And that is what this thread has become. Unless you have an opinion based on first hand experience, it needs not be posted. I don't think anyone looking for an optic wants a sales pitch, nor do they care what the other optics forum are saying. You need to understand the needs of many here on Accurateshooter.com are VERY different than those of the average optics purchaser. Most here are not weekend hunters or guys who go to a 300yd range with a factory Remington 700 and are happy with .75MOA. Most here are serious competitors and long range marksmen who demand the very best optics money can buy. So what the average guy feel is good, is going to be trash to most everyone here. When you start shooting at 600yds and beyond, dealing with mirage, poor lighting conditions, or the many other environmental concerns that many must deal with and also overcome, any shortcomings of an optic are going to show themselves and be all too apparent. That is the major difference between the "real user" and the weekend warrior who thinks his $500 optic is comparable to a NightForce or that an issue with parallax is no big deal.
Leave the sales pitch to the other sites. When you have a solid opinion based on real-world use in adverse conditions, then you have something. And just because it's your favorite new optics company, doesn't mean anyone else will feel the same. So don't trash others companies about stuff you "heard is happening", bring your experiences here, leave the rest for the optics forum.
Kenny
The OP asked the users of this forum of their opinions on two optics based on their own use and experiences, not for unrelated issues to be discussed or what our thoughts were on the new CEO of Leupold or if Vortex is selling a lot of optics. And frankly, I don't give a rats ass about any of it, and I doubt anybody else does either.
Vortex will succeed as a company if they produce a quality product. If they do not, their reputation will slowly crumble and they will be just another piss poor optics company that will be compared to the likes of Barska, NC-Star or any of the other low-end optics suppliers. When they start to deliver a high percentage of junk, their warranty will mean little, especially as they are a very new company who still needs to build a reputation of quality before most of the serious purchasers (those being serious competitors in the shooting sports, serious hunters, tactical operators, or anyone else whose livelihood or life or even championship shot rests on the quality of the optic strapped to the top of his/her rifle) will ever take them seriously. Until that reputation of solid quality is built, the serious user will rely on what has been proven for many years to work when all the chips are down and it has to perform.
Leupold has built it's reputation to what it is today by delivering a high quality optic that will deliver the goods, whether on the elk hunt of a lifetime, or at the firing line of a 1000yd match. I don't think Leupold's product deserves to be picked apart in any way. Yes, as with any company they will occasionally deliver a flawed product, but as they have shown for many years, they will repair or replace the optic free of charge with no questions asked and make sure you are 100% satisfied. And that, my friend, is the bottom line.
And on one final note, nobody asked for a sales pitch. And that is what this thread has become. Unless you have an opinion based on first hand experience, it needs not be posted. I don't think anyone looking for an optic wants a sales pitch, nor do they care what the other optics forum are saying. You need to understand the needs of many here on Accurateshooter.com are VERY different than those of the average optics purchaser. Most here are not weekend hunters or guys who go to a 300yd range with a factory Remington 700 and are happy with .75MOA. Most here are serious competitors and long range marksmen who demand the very best optics money can buy. So what the average guy feel is good, is going to be trash to most everyone here. When you start shooting at 600yds and beyond, dealing with mirage, poor lighting conditions, or the many other environmental concerns that many must deal with and also overcome, any shortcomings of an optic are going to show themselves and be all too apparent. That is the major difference between the "real user" and the weekend warrior who thinks his $500 optic is comparable to a NightForce or that an issue with parallax is no big deal.
Leave the sales pitch to the other sites. When you have a solid opinion based on real-world use in adverse conditions, then you have something. And just because it's your favorite new optics company, doesn't mean anyone else will feel the same. So don't trash others companies about stuff you "heard is happening", bring your experiences here, leave the rest for the optics forum.
Kenny
From the December 2010 issue of "Precision Shooting", page 93, results of 2010 IBS 100/200 yd. score Nationals, equipment list: scopes used: Leupold 33. Weaver 16. Sightron, Nightforce & Burris 7 each. March 4. B&L 3. Myer & Lyman 1 each. January 2011 issue of P.S., page 95, results of Georgia State IBS 100/200 yd. equipment list: scopes used: Leupold 15. Nightforce 7. Weaver 4. March & Sightron 1 each. Yup, just like I thought, a lot of competitors unhappy with their Leupold scopes. 
FD..... not that I'm trying to defend any brands here but just where do you get off trying to say people are unhappy? If 33 out of 79 used Leupold in 2010 and 15 out of 28 used them again in 2011 wouldn't the percentages of users who chose to use Leupold be more than 50% for 2011? I'd say that by the numbers their popularity or standing in competition would have only risen from 2010 to 2011. I'm no genius but even I can read statistics. I have to admit that although I am slowly moving away from Leupold for other brands such as Nighforce and hopefully March (if it'll ever show up) that they have earned their fame and it is well deserved. Were you trying to slander Leupold's good name? If so don't post stats that help their case and not your's. That would just be funny!
"Z": Believe me, I made the last comment in jest! More than double the number of Leupold's being used in the big money competition match's than the #2 choice(s). I'm seeing the same ratio's in our local benchrest groundhog match's fired at distances out to 500 meters/ 547 yards. Proof enough for me, in addition to my own experiences with them, that they continue to be at or near the top of the list for quality scopes.
Oh good! For a bit there I was almost confused. I guess it all just boils down to each individual and his tastes. I really like Zeiss glass but wish they were a little more durable and that there was more elevation built into them. I really don't have many complaints about my Leupolds from personal experience. I've heard of issues but never experienced them myself. My Nightforce scopes weigh a metric ton but are built like tanks and are mechanically flawless. I'm honestly not a huge fan of the color fidelity of Nighforce but the contrast and clarity is superb! I even think that my Vortex is a decent value. Hell I bought it didn't I? Would have loved to have found one used for less but they're just not as popular in my neck of the woods.
Zac M.
Zac M.
For the record, I own an IOR 3-18X42, 2 NF NXS 5.5-22X50's for my better scopes. I do not shoot BR specific comps, so the higher magnifications are not an issue for me.
I am not trying to state that Vortex is in this category of quality, but they are less than 1/3 the cost too, but I have not used/owned a Razor yet. Never tried to say that Vortex is in this class of optics, just that the Viper is one of the best value optics in the $500.00 range. If you all still prefer the Leupold's, that is great! I just can not justify the cost vs performance of the VX-3 and others in the line anymore. The MK 4 is not as robust as the NF in that price range and I love the glass/reticle in the IOR FFP vs anything in the sub $2000 range. I would use March, S&B or Hensoldts, if I could afford them, but with two kids in college, there are limits to my discretionary funds for now.
I am not trying to state that Vortex is in this category of quality, but they are less than 1/3 the cost too, but I have not used/owned a Razor yet. Never tried to say that Vortex is in this class of optics, just that the Viper is one of the best value optics in the $500.00 range. If you all still prefer the Leupold's, that is great! I just can not justify the cost vs performance of the VX-3 and others in the line anymore. The MK 4 is not as robust as the NF in that price range and I love the glass/reticle in the IOR FFP vs anything in the sub $2000 range. I would use March, S&B or Hensoldts, if I could afford them, but with two kids in college, there are limits to my discretionary funds for now.
fdshuster said:From the December 2010 issue of "Precision Shooting", page 93, results of 2010 IBS 100/200 yd. score Nationals, equipment list: scopes used: Leupold 33. Weaver 16. Sightron, Nightforce & Burris 7 each. March 4. B&L 3. Myer & Lyman 1 each. January 2011 issue of P.S., page 95, results of Georgia State IBS 100/200 yd. equipment list: scopes used: Leupold 15. Nightforce 7. Weaver 4. March & Sightron 1 each. Yup, just like I thought, a lot of competitors unhappy with their Leupold scopes.
I don't feel the above quote represents the quality of any one scope, but rather what one can afford to use.
If it is based on quality, in the results above it looks like Weaver is favored 4 to 1 over March, and better then 2 to 1 over Nightforce.
I think that is a reflection of what is "affordable" to a particular shooter rather then what a particular shooter would like to be using.
McKinneyMike said:An opinion from a well respected optics reviewer about Leupold of today:
http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:leupoldredfield&catid=9
Not exactly a scathing report against Leupold....unless you only read the Vx1 report. It said nothing to substantiate your earlier report denigrating Leupold. I've bought dozens of Leupolds in the last 45 years along with some other brands. It is the only brand that my sons and I currently own....why? because they do exactly what is expected of them, never had one fog up, adjustments always worked, reticles never broke. Sent one back once.......for a reticle change, got it back within 2 weeks.
Have 4 Leupold BR scopes for last 7 years...never a problem holding zero......you can tell pretty quick with a tuned BR rig. Those Leupolds winning short-range BR, most are stock, un-modified units that in concert with a tuned BR rifle shoot aggregates ( 5 groups of 5 shots)in the low to mid .2's.
My advice to the OP is go with Leupold due to performance and service records that go back to 1947.....................................LHSmith .....old member of the "old guard"
Remember: Leupold made RIGHT....made HERE!
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