Tuners

[BoydAllen]

The truth about tuners varies a bit with the application. On an unlimited RF bench rifle with a longish .900 dia barrel and a fairly heavy tuner, sensitivity to adjustment will be different than if you are working with a different configuration on a 10.5# CF rifle. To make weight with the the lighter rifle, the barrel has to be shorter and CF will not work with the RF profile. Also, to have a rifle that shoots well free recoil, the tuner weight is a factor which combined with the stiffer barrel has an effect on what a given amount of adjustment will do. There are ways around this, but that is another subject.

 

[jcline]

This topic has been debated time and time again. The facts are, If you come to a short range match and don't have a tuner or know how to use the one you have, you WILL be beaten 99% of the time with someone that has one and knows how to use it! They also work well in Long range, you just can't see what your groups look like most of the time to make adjustments until LG or HG is 50% finished or you see your first 2 targets.

 

[Fast14riot]

Bryan Zolnikov has some great tuner testing videos on YouTube. He covers atmospheric changes to his tune with statistically significant amounts of data.

 

[ELR LVR]

Let me see if I can find one of my tuner test and post it here, I think you will see the difference.

Thanks,
I was wanting some encouraging to go ahead and "bite the bullet" on this
I've went ahead and ordered a tuner.
I have one 22BR that won't shoot below the .2's
If a 22BR doesn't put them all into one hole something's wrong
It may need a chamber refresh but... will see what a tuner can do for it first.

 

[ELR LVR]

I had two tuners on three different rifles. Sold the tuners. No Garmin also when I am shooting in a competition. I just think about shooting. Works pretty good at times.
IMHO

Yeah, I am in that category, Much more into the science of tuning a load to the rifle.
Seating depth being King in that.
--------------------------------------
And once I get a load perfected I am finding the experts say you cannot
....... use a tuner to make a perfect load more perfect
Goes with one of my sayings
"You can't improve upon perfection"
--------------------------------------
However I am open to the fact the Tuner has to do "Something"
and that something may just be a slight bit easier than going back home and tweaking loads and going back out and load testing
then going back home and tweak some more
then going back out and shoot and test, using up prescious components etc etc
------------------------------------
maybe a tuner can accomplish a similar aspect as adjusting seating depth
And if I can't find the "Magic Perfect" load, perhaps it may help with that "Sooner"
I dont know yet

 

[BoydAllen]

Yeah, I am in that category, Much more into the science of tuning a load to the rifle.
Seating depth being King in that.
--------------------------------------
And once I get a load perfected I am finding the experts say you cannot
....... use a tuner to make a perfect load more perfect
Goes with one of my sayings
"You can't improve upon perfection"
--------------------------------------
However I am open to the fact the Tuner has to do "Something"
and that something may just be a slight bit easier than going back home and tweaking loads and going back out and load testing
then going back home and tweak some more
then going back out and shoot and test, using up prescious components etc etc
------------------------------------
maybe a tuner can accomplish a similar aspect as adjusting seating depth
And if I can't find the "Magic Perfect" load, perhaps it may help with that "Sooner"
I dont know yet

I have a friend who has tuners on all of his competition rifles. He does his own gunsmithing, and tests a LOT. IMO, based on my knowledge of what he has done, and his results, tuners are the icing on the cake, in that before you can evaluate icing, first you need a cake. In this case you need a rifle that is very accurate, and load shooting and load tuning methods that will show the effects of small changes repeatably. Lacking these the effects of small adjustments can literally get lost in the wind. My friend mounts his tuner in what for him is a standard starting position, tunes his load with powder and seating depth, and then works with the tuner. I believe that he is getting smaller and more frequent best groups, and greatly enhanced tuning node width. If your primary source for information is not your own careful testing, I recommend that you start doing your own work. One question, are you tuning at the range and shooting over flags?

 

[ELR LVR]

I have a friend who has tuners on all of his competition rifles. He does his own gunsmithing, and tests a LOT. IMO, based on my knowledge of what he has done, and his results, tuners are the icing on the cake, in that before you can evaluate icing, first you need a cake. In this case you need a rifle that is very accurate, and load shooting and load tuning methods that will show the effects of small changes repeatably. Lacking these the effects of small adjustments can literally get lost in the wind. My friend mounts his tuner in what for him is a standard starting position, tunes his load with powder and seating depth, and then works with the tuner. I believe that he is getting smaller and more frequent best groups, and greatly enhanced tuning node width. If your primary source for information is not your own careful testing, I recommend that you start doing your own work. One question, are you tuning at the range and shooting over flags?

I figured as much
Just like handloads do not guarantee a "factory rifle" will shoot 1/2"
But thank you, I was going to use an accurate rifle
I am like your buddy, I do all my own work
I have been a Machinist for 30 yrs, use to be head of a machine shop.
Used to be a CNC machinist as well, but use manual machines for my own hobby
I can say this, and not to sound boastish but
I have never had a more accurate rifle, than when I started building my own
I have custom Smithed rifles that are very accurate but fall shy of the rifles I build
I have to think it is the Love I put into my own work,...(Then of course I'm sure every machinist has their own little secrets they employ, I have mine)
It almost feels like I get intimate with the rifle
I am never in a hurry
I might take 2 days just to do a chamber job, to make sure, every single thing
Is perfect, (meaning within .0001")
Not to suggest I am any better than any other Smith
Although I have to think other Smiths are often on a schedule when building a rifle
When I am not
I can take a break and come back to it whenever I want, am fresh, clear headed and thinking 20 steps ahead of whatever process I am doing.
Same as reading music while playing an instrument, you have to be looking ahead while playing the present.
If a rifle build takes me a whole week, that is fine because of the many years that one week spent
.... will provide me years of accurate enjoyment

 

[Fast14riot]

Yeah, I am in that category, Much more into the science of tuning a load to the rifle.
Seating depth being King in that.
--------------------------------------
And once I get a load perfected I am finding the experts say you cannot
....... use a tuner to make a perfect load more perfect
Goes with one of my sayings
"You can't improve upon perfection"
--------------------------------------
However I am open to the fact the Tuner has to do "Something"
and that something may just be a slight bit easier than going back home and tweaking loads and going back out and load testing
then going back home and tweak some more
then going back out and shoot and test, using up prescious components etc etc
------------------------------------
maybe a tuner can accomplish a similar aspect as adjusting seating depth
And if I can't find the "Magic Perfect" load, perhaps it may help with that "Sooner"
I dont know yet

Seating depth works to tune the load, a tuner tunes the shooting system to the conditions. As Bryan points out in this video, barometric pressure seems to be the biggest atmospheric effect on tune. I have noticed it as well, but until recent years I haven't felt I had enough skill to determine it wasn't me causing issues. Which is partly why I have decided on a tuner for my new long range gun. There is a part 2 video with more testing and analysis.

[Youtube]

 

[ELR LVR]

Seating depth works to tune the load, a tuner tunes the shooting system to the conditions. As Bryan points out in this video, barometric pressure seems to be the biggest atmospheric effect on tune. I have noticed it as well, but until recent years I haven't felt I had enough skill to determine it wasn't me causing issues. Which is partly why I have decided on a tuner for my new long range gun. There is a part 2 video with more testing and analysis.

[Youtube]

I've never encountered changing conditions affect my loads
This is what I am not getting, but read about every shooter doing
They shoot the same no matter what on any given day
Predictable
Perhaps it's because I live in Calif and we don't have extremes as much as other States
All I've seen Hg change is vertical impact, which is accounted for with less vertical if I go up in Elevation
But once the elevation is accounted for, it shoots the same at 5000 ft as it does at 1700
I dont shoot at 8000 or at sea level
It is usaully between 1000 and 5500

 

[Fast14riot]

Well, his explanation of a terrible tune is over 0.25" groups at 100y with a known good load. My lowest X count days at 1000y have been on days leading up to a big storm, or those mid summer rains that roll through and pressure drops. I generally shoot at sea level to 1500' ASL.

 

[ELR LVR]

Well, his explanation of a terrible tune is over 0.25" groups at 100y with a known good load. My lowest X count days at 1000y have been on days leading up to a big storm, or those mid summer rains that roll through and pressure drops. I generally shoot at sea level to 1500' ASL.

Let me explain what I mean if I may, because many guys are going to suggest I need to
"tune for the conditions"
This is a fun but somewhat lengthy back story so I'll try to not derail the thread too much except to say
I originally developed this load at Approx 2000' El at about 60F
Months later I went to a location of approx 4000' and 100F in July Summer Heat.
It was HOTTT, sweat dripping into your eyes from just Standing still, constantly wiping your forehead.
Up near Union Valley Res
A buddy had his Tikka Tac A1 in 6.5 Creed and we're going to load test for the extremes of heat
I suggested we run a Hot weather test on our ammo to gauge vertical dispersion.
...(shown for this test is a 3 shot test group in lower left of pic)
One thing I may do differently than other guys is I Test and Tune my loads for the maximum amount of Heat I may ever encounter while shooting
That way I never have an overpresure
Even if I develop a load at 40F I will test it at 100F to ensure it does not overpressure when it gets hotter outside
Then cut it back accordingly
--------------------------------------
So we go prone and set up because I want to see how much vertical I may get as the round heats up
So I ask my buddy to Spot
I fire 2 shots consecutively one right after the other for a test group
Ensure it is on, all shots are going in the same place
upon firing the second shot I said "good, same hole"
He asks, "Well how do know it was in the same hole,.....if it went in the same hole how do you see it?"
(He's kinda new to this stuff so I am helping him learn)
I kind of laughed and said "Well, first because no other holes printed around it and second because when they go into the same hole it looks like the hole "wiggles"
He just kind of looked at me weird like he didn't believe me
So I chamber a 3rd round and close the bolt and let it "cook" in the chamber for 10 minutes in 100F heat.
Then I ask him to spot when the time came and fired
He lowered his head and mumbled "SAME ..............HOLE"
------------------
So when my shots are printing like this, from one atmospoheric extreme to the next
I mean shot 3 did go Barely a hair higher from the heat of cooking in the chamber for 10 minutes but...
...I don't see why I would adjust anything?
Is it because other people are using slower cartridges that are below 3000 fps they encounter this more pronounced having to tune to the conditions?

 

[Fast14riot]

Temp and altitude are not the same as station pressure. Bryan covers that testing in his videos, too.

It is smart load development though, I often adjust my loads from winter to summer to stay in my velocity sweet spot. Ammo temps from 40 to 120 are common.

Curious though, what are your targets and metric for "always shoots the same?"

 

[ELR LVR]

Temp and altitude are not the same as station pressure. Bryan covers that testing in his videos, too.

It is smart load development though, I often adjust my loads from winter to summer to stay in my velocity sweet spot. Ammo temps from 40 to 120 are common.

Curious though, what are your targets and metric for "always shoots the same?"

Consistently shoots approx 1/3 MOA at 600
On different days, different temps, Hg is pretty consistent, I'd have to look at my books but if I remember right it's usually around 27.0 Hg
I don't load test during storm fronts so haven't tested in that condition
At that distance, If I am using paper targets, they are 8.5 x 11 binder paper w/ Orange Paster
I have a big enough collection of them that it shows the rifle does the same every outing I took it out on.
Night /Day/ Cold/ Warm.
Although I will say most of the dispersion is vertical. But again I shoot with a bipod and no rear bag.
(what does it matter what the Station Pressure is, if that is the pressure at a given reporting Station),
I use the actual pressure at my physical location)
Readings are taken from a Garmin Rhino 755t
--------------------------------------------------
I should probably add here, our disciplines are likely different
Mine is to be able to go out anytime, preloaded, and shoot animals
(Many counties in Nevada allow Night hunting, with spotlights,
and a Mt. Lion Tag is like 40 bucks, when you cannot even mention that in Ca
Anyway for what I usually do, I dont have the luxury of adjusting loads out in the field for the conditions

 

[Fast14riot]

Station pressure is the pressure at your location. Barometric pressure, often used as a generic term, is relative to sea level and changes with density altitude. Barometric pressure is adjusted for altitude from station pressure.

And you have the data for shot dispersion based on temps and weather, "most the dispersion is vertical" and other more experienced tuner users than me have said tuners tune vertical.

I know you said you ordered a tuner, but sounds to me like you're prime for testing all this out! It would be interesting to see your results compared to your previous data.

 

[ELR LVR]

I am measuring "Absolute" with my GPS....which is technically the same as "Station"
Correct?
Although both different than Barometric

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Seating depth works to tune the load, a tuner tunes the shooting system to the conditions. As Bryan points out in this video, barometric pressure seems to be the biggest atmospheric effect on tune. I have noticed it as well, but until recent years I haven't felt I had enough skill to determine it wasn't me causing issues. Which is partly why I have decided on a tuner for my new long range gun. There is a part 2 video with more testing and analysis.

[Youtube]

A caveat on your take from Bryan's videos is that barometric pressure was most critical in HIS TEST. His location during testing saw very little temperature change, so that aspect wasn't really tested. Only barometer. His testing is good but his testing conditions are unlike most of us will see. I find temp AND pressure both important to tune. If I had to pick only one, it'd be temperature, though

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I am measuring "Absolute" with my GPS....which is technically the same as "Station"
Correct?
Although both different than Barometric

Not sure what Absolute is but station pressure is the weight of a cubic ft of air, uncorrected for variables like humidity, altitude and temp.

 

[ELR LVR]

Not sure what Absolute is but station pressure is the weight of a cubic ft of air, uncorrected for variables like humidity, altitude and temp.

I learned the term as "Absolute" ....the term Station is unfamiliar to me but am reading they are the same thing.
What I am basically getting at is............
...What is important for me is the actual "Station" or "Absolute" reading of pressure at my specific location at the time of shooting.
Why would I correct for sea level if I am not flying a plane to relate it to ground level? Lol
And due to the fact I change elevations so much this is important when I enter this informtion into my shooting App to provide me a trajectory drop chart.
----------------------------
I once had my load "Dialed" for my 7/08 and really didnt think I changed elevation much one time and my shots were hitting 1 full foot high at 1000 yds, but were consistent
I took a reading and sure enough....it now coincided
I now take a reading every time and log it when I test
It seems to coincide very well with my Lapua App
What I also found VERY important to make your shots coincide throughout the trajectory range is
...Make sure your scope height above bore centerline is measured well and accurately.
Otherwise every adjustment for every distance will be off except for one yardage

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I learned the term as "Absolute" ....the term Station is unfamiliar to me but am reading they are the same thing.
What I am basically getting at is............
...What is important for me is the actual "Station" or "Absolute" reading of pressure at my specific location at the time of shooting.
Why would I correct for sea level if I am not flying a plane to relate it to ground level? Lol
And due to the fact I change elevations so much this is important when I enter this informtion into my shooting App to provide me a trajectory drop chart.
----------------------------
I once had my load "Dialed" for my 7/08 and really didnt think I changed elevation much one time and my shots were hitting 1 full foot high at 1000 yds, but were consistent
I took a reading and sure enough....it now coincided
I now take a reading every time and log it when I test
It seems to coincide very well with my Lapua App
What I also found VERY important to make your shots coincide throughout the trajectory range is
...Make sure your scope height above bore centerline is measured well and accurately.
Otherwise every adjustment for every distance will be off except for one yardage

I use station..or Absolute but temp is critical too. Honestly, the group you posted above looks like it's a bit out of tune but it comes down to discipline and what's acceptable. Vertical is the first indicator of tune going away. If a gun always has vertical it can certainly be something else, like handling or setup.

 

[ELR LVR]

I use station..or Absolute but temp is critical too. Honestly, the group you posted above looks like it's a bit out of tune but it comes down to discipline and what's acceptable. Vertical is the first indicator of tune going away. If a gun always has vertical it can certainly be something else, like handling or setup.

I believe you are right, Although each round was progressively heating up in that case of the last group I posted.
Each shot showed to be climbing.
That 3rd highest shot SHOULD have been a slight increase in velocity due to temp
I mainly wanted to just see how wacky things would go if I left a round in the chamber with the bolt closed
(As if waiting for a shot that might happen any second so you dont chance even having the bolt lifted because that split second is too long)
Any other time I would not leave a Round cooking in the hot chamber that amount of time.
I liked the test results at that short range but need to repeat the same again at longer range
--------------
So....... more testing with a Tuner will come this season
I wonder if it will tune out vertical from leaving a round in the chamber?
That would be cool!