Tuners

[ELR LVR]

small moves on the tuner ,one number at a time . 3-5 shots then one more number, 3-5 more shots then one more number,ecta. don't know if I ever gone past the 8th digit to get tight groups . in the pic its #3 digit and then the #4 digit

Nice display.
I was hoping to see some kind of groups where it is VERY evident the shooter didn't just happen to suddenly shoot one group better than the last.
Those 2 groupings significantly contrast one another showing a major change in shot dispersion

 

[Ccrider]

Nice display.
I was hoping to see some kind of groups where it is VERY evident the shooter didn't just happen to suddenly shoot one group better than the last.
Those 2 groupings significantly contrast one another showing a major change in shot dispersion

If it repeats.

 

[misser]

If it repeats.

that's the nice thing a bout a tuner . its not set in stone. if for some reason it needs a adjustment , give a number up or down .

 

[Rob01]

Nice display.
I was hoping to see some kind of groups where it is VERY evident the shooter didn't just happen to suddenly shoot one group better than the last.
Those 2 groupings significantly contrast one another showing a major change in shot dispersion

Here is my initial tuner test a few years back with three lots of ammo. Only two are in the pic of the adjusting but one is the 5 shot group after tuning that lot with a 6th bullet hole as the aiming point.

The owner of Kinetic Security Solutions who makes the ATS tuner is a PRS match shooter and I talked to him at a match before getting one and trying it and he said use two shots and adjust 2-3 marks on the tuner between. That’s what I did. I started at number 2 for some reason and you can see how far apart the bullet holes are. That is a lot of factory ammo that never really shot good for me as you could see from the first target shot #2. Then I made adjustments and you can see how they start coming together in 3, 4, 5 and 6 and that was about as good as it got but I shot 7 and 1 to see and they did open a little but still better than the starting point. Lot 715 was a decent lot and dropped into a tight group and lot 751 is the group below and the one I shot out at the 930 yards I spoke about in my earlier post in this thread.

And yes they were repeatable. I took a pic and knew where to adjust the tuner to for each lot so I went back to that mark when shooting that lot of ammo. I know a naysayer will come in and talk down what I have posted but the difference is I spent the time at the range and watched the effects and saw what the tuner would do for factory ammo. They are just talking on the internet about something they think won’t work.

 

[Shooter13]

Nice display.
I was hoping to see some kind of groups where it is VERY evident the shooter didn't just happen to suddenly shoot one group better than the last.
Those 2 groupings significantly contrast one another showing a major change in shot dispersion

Let me see if I can find one of my tuner test and post it here, I think you will see the difference.

 

[Canuckienns]

I had two tuners on three different rifles. Sold the tuners. No Garmin also when I am shooting in a competition. I just think about shooting. Works pretty good at times.
IMHO

 

[Bill Norris]

This is an E C V2 tuner test with my 6BRX checking a fully developed load with Bart's 103 gr. Hammers 32.8 gr. of Varget @ .008 jam from just touch. It is only two shot groups for each setting but as one can see that was simply all I needed in order to find a couple of sweet spots. I went back and test 5-shot groups @ settings 10 and 32.5 and then on both sides of those settings at only one mark intervals to see if the tune was wide enough to be dependable. I have went on to shoot many 5-shot groups @ setting 10 less than1/4 MOA and actually won group agg. at a 600 yd. match in Dec. at Rattlesnake Range - Lagrange N C at that setting with this same load and settings. I believe tuners work if the shooter spends time to test in different conditions and is methodical in the amount the tuner is adjusted. Keeping records of tuning and paying attention to conditions is as important as any other part of load development if the tune is maintained.

NOTE: The test was one complete rotation from zero

 

[Bill Norris]

Uncle Bill’ tell me why you chose number ten versus number five.
Thx
Jim

O K When I am testing the tuner I apply the same principal as when working up the load in that I am looking for a pattern more than simply the tightest group. By considering the pattern or "width of the node" if you will it has been taught by many top shooters that the load will remain in tune through conditional changes longer. I have found this to be true with all of my tuner testing with 4 different rifles.

 

[Bill Norris]

I got ya, it just appears that setting number 10 is starting to shift slightly so that’s why I asked.
Thx

Correct but then look at setting 15 though. Another observation to consider if one is swayed by chrono numbers is all the way to setting 20 the M V was really close across 4 settings. 5 10 15 & 20. Just another element to help confirm patterns are important in my opinion.

 

[BoydAllen]

The truth about tuners varies a bit with the application. On an unlimited RF bench rifle with a longish .900 dia barrel and a fairly heavy tuner, sensitivity to adjustment will be different than if you are working with a different configuration on a 10.5# CF rifle. To make weight with the the lighter rifle, the barrel has to be shorter and CF will not work with the RF profile. Also, to have a rifle that shoots well free recoil, the tuner weight is a factor which combined with the stiffer barrel has an effect on what a given amount of adjustment will do. There are ways around this, but that is another subject.

 

[jcline]

This topic has been debated time and time again. The facts are, If you come to a short range match and don't have a tuner or know how to use the one you have, you WILL be beaten 99% of the time with someone that has one and knows how to use it! They also work well in Long range, you just can't see what your groups look like most of the time to make adjustments until LG or HG is 50% finished or you see your first 2 targets.

 

[Fast14riot]

Bryan Zolnikov has some great tuner testing videos on YouTube. He covers atmospheric changes to his tune with statistically significant amounts of data.

 

[ELR LVR]

Let me see if I can find one of my tuner test and post it here, I think you will see the difference.

Thanks,
I was wanting some encouraging to go ahead and "bite the bullet" on this
I've went ahead and ordered a tuner.
I have one 22BR that won't shoot below the .2's
If a 22BR doesn't put them all into one hole something's wrong
It may need a chamber refresh but... will see what a tuner can do for it first.

 

[ELR LVR]

I had two tuners on three different rifles. Sold the tuners. No Garmin also when I am shooting in a competition. I just think about shooting. Works pretty good at times.
IMHO

Yeah, I am in that category, Much more into the science of tuning a load to the rifle.
Seating depth being King in that.
--------------------------------------
And once I get a load perfected I am finding the experts say you cannot
....... use a tuner to make a perfect load more perfect
Goes with one of my sayings
"You can't improve upon perfection"
--------------------------------------
However I am open to the fact the Tuner has to do "Something"
and that something may just be a slight bit easier than going back home and tweaking loads and going back out and load testing
then going back home and tweak some more
then going back out and shoot and test, using up prescious components etc etc
------------------------------------
maybe a tuner can accomplish a similar aspect as adjusting seating depth
And if I can't find the "Magic Perfect" load, perhaps it may help with that "Sooner"
I dont know yet

 

[BoydAllen]

Yeah, I am in that category, Much more into the science of tuning a load to the rifle.
Seating depth being King in that.
--------------------------------------
And once I get a load perfected I am finding the experts say you cannot
....... use a tuner to make a perfect load more perfect
Goes with one of my sayings
"You can't improve upon perfection"
--------------------------------------
However I am open to the fact the Tuner has to do "Something"
and that something may just be a slight bit easier than going back home and tweaking loads and going back out and load testing
then going back home and tweak some more
then going back out and shoot and test, using up prescious components etc etc
------------------------------------
maybe a tuner can accomplish a similar aspect as adjusting seating depth
And if I can't find the "Magic Perfect" load, perhaps it may help with that "Sooner"
I dont know yet

I have a friend who has tuners on all of his competition rifles. He does his own gunsmithing, and tests a LOT. IMO, based on my knowledge of what he has done, and his results, tuners are the icing on the cake, in that before you can evaluate icing, first you need a cake. In this case you need a rifle that is very accurate, and load shooting and load tuning methods that will show the effects of small changes repeatably. Lacking these the effects of small adjustments can literally get lost in the wind. My friend mounts his tuner in what for him is a standard starting position, tunes his load with powder and seating depth, and then works with the tuner. I believe that he is getting smaller and more frequent best groups, and greatly enhanced tuning node width. If your primary source for information is not your own careful testing, I recommend that you start doing your own work. One question, are you tuning at the range and shooting over flags?

 

[ELR LVR]

I have a friend who has tuners on all of his competition rifles. He does his own gunsmithing, and tests a LOT. IMO, based on my knowledge of what he has done, and his results, tuners are the icing on the cake, in that before you can evaluate icing, first you need a cake. In this case you need a rifle that is very accurate, and load shooting and load tuning methods that will show the effects of small changes repeatably. Lacking these the effects of small adjustments can literally get lost in the wind. My friend mounts his tuner in what for him is a standard starting position, tunes his load with powder and seating depth, and then works with the tuner. I believe that he is getting smaller and more frequent best groups, and greatly enhanced tuning node width. If your primary source for information is not your own careful testing, I recommend that you start doing your own work. One question, are you tuning at the range and shooting over flags?

I figured as much
Just like handloads do not guarantee a "factory rifle" will shoot 1/2"
But thank you, I was going to use an accurate rifle
I am like your buddy, I do all my own work
I have been a Machinist for 30 yrs, use to be head of a machine shop.
Used to be a CNC machinist as well, but use manual machines for my own hobby
I can say this, and not to sound boastish but
I have never had a more accurate rifle, than when I started building my own
I have custom Smithed rifles that are very accurate but fall shy of the rifles I build
I have to think it is the Love I put into my own work,...(Then of course I'm sure every machinist has their own little secrets they employ, I have mine)
It almost feels like I get intimate with the rifle
I am never in a hurry
I might take 2 days just to do a chamber job, to make sure, every single thing
Is perfect, (meaning within .0001")
Not to suggest I am any better than any other Smith
Although I have to think other Smiths are often on a schedule when building a rifle
When I am not
I can take a break and come back to it whenever I want, am fresh, clear headed and thinking 20 steps ahead of whatever process I am doing.
Same as reading music while playing an instrument, you have to be looking ahead while playing the present.
If a rifle build takes me a whole week, that is fine because of the many years that one week spent
.... will provide me years of accurate enjoyment

 

[Fast14riot]

Yeah, I am in that category, Much more into the science of tuning a load to the rifle.
Seating depth being King in that.
--------------------------------------
And once I get a load perfected I am finding the experts say you cannot
....... use a tuner to make a perfect load more perfect
Goes with one of my sayings
"You can't improve upon perfection"
--------------------------------------
However I am open to the fact the Tuner has to do "Something"
and that something may just be a slight bit easier than going back home and tweaking loads and going back out and load testing
then going back home and tweak some more
then going back out and shoot and test, using up prescious components etc etc
------------------------------------
maybe a tuner can accomplish a similar aspect as adjusting seating depth
And if I can't find the "Magic Perfect" load, perhaps it may help with that "Sooner"
I dont know yet

Seating depth works to tune the load, a tuner tunes the shooting system to the conditions. As Bryan points out in this video, barometric pressure seems to be the biggest atmospheric effect on tune. I have noticed it as well, but until recent years I haven't felt I had enough skill to determine it wasn't me causing issues. Which is partly why I have decided on a tuner for my new long range gun. There is a part 2 video with more testing and analysis.

[Youtube]

 

[ELR LVR]

Seating depth works to tune the load, a tuner tunes the shooting system to the conditions. As Bryan points out in this video, barometric pressure seems to be the biggest atmospheric effect on tune. I have noticed it as well, but until recent years I haven't felt I had enough skill to determine it wasn't me causing issues. Which is partly why I have decided on a tuner for my new long range gun. There is a part 2 video with more testing and analysis.

[Youtube]

I've never encountered changing conditions affect my loads
This is what I am not getting, but read about every shooter doing
They shoot the same no matter what on any given day
Predictable
Perhaps it's because I live in Calif and we don't have extremes as much as other States
All I've seen Hg change is vertical impact, which is accounted for with less vertical if I go up in Elevation
But once the elevation is accounted for, it shoots the same at 5000 ft as it does at 1700
I dont shoot at 8000 or at sea level
It is usaully between 1000 and 5500

 

[Fast14riot]

Well, his explanation of a terrible tune is over 0.25" groups at 100y with a known good load. My lowest X count days at 1000y have been on days leading up to a big storm, or those mid summer rains that roll through and pressure drops. I generally shoot at sea level to 1500' ASL.

 

[ELR LVR]

Well, his explanation of a terrible tune is over 0.25" groups at 100y with a known good load. My lowest X count days at 1000y have been on days leading up to a big storm, or those mid summer rains that roll through and pressure drops. I generally shoot at sea level to 1500' ASL.

Let me explain what I mean if I may, because many guys are going to suggest I need to
"tune for the conditions"
This is a fun but somewhat lengthy back story so I'll try to not derail the thread too much except to say
I originally developed this load at Approx 2000' El at about 60F
Months later I went to a location of approx 4000' and 100F in July Summer Heat.
It was HOTTT, sweat dripping into your eyes from just Standing still, constantly wiping your forehead.
Up near Union Valley Res
A buddy had his Tikka Tac A1 in 6.5 Creed and we're going to load test for the extremes of heat
I suggested we run a Hot weather test on our ammo to gauge vertical dispersion.
...(shown for this test is a 3 shot test group in lower left of pic)
One thing I may do differently than other guys is I Test and Tune my loads for the maximum amount of Heat I may ever encounter while shooting
That way I never have an overpresure
Even if I develop a load at 40F I will test it at 100F to ensure it does not overpressure when it gets hotter outside
Then cut it back accordingly
--------------------------------------
So we go prone and set up because I want to see how much vertical I may get as the round heats up
So I ask my buddy to Spot
I fire 2 shots consecutively one right after the other for a test group
Ensure it is on, all shots are going in the same place
upon firing the second shot I said "good, same hole"
He asks, "Well how do know it was in the same hole,.....if it went in the same hole how do you see it?"
(He's kinda new to this stuff so I am helping him learn)
I kind of laughed and said "Well, first because no other holes printed around it and second because when they go into the same hole it looks like the hole "wiggles"
He just kind of looked at me weird like he didn't believe me
So I chamber a 3rd round and close the bolt and let it "cook" in the chamber for 10 minutes in 100F heat.
Then I ask him to spot when the time came and fired
He lowered his head and mumbled "SAME ..............HOLE"
------------------
So when my shots are printing like this, from one atmospoheric extreme to the next
I mean shot 3 did go Barely a hair higher from the heat of cooking in the chamber for 10 minutes but...
...I don't see why I would adjust anything?
Is it because other people are using slower cartridges that are below 3000 fps they encounter this more pronounced having to tune to the conditions?