Tuners - what you're missing

[dcali]

To many of you this is old hat - especially you benchrest guys. But to the rest of you - especially the F class guys...

I don't usually gush about products. I tend to use what I like until I don't like it anymore and then use something else. Not really one for band loyalty or a strong affinity for equipment at all, really.

But I just have to say that Mike Ezell's tuners are magic. It's up there with carbide turning mandrels on my "why did I wait so long to get one of these" list.

Some of you might know that I was a structural dynamacist in a former life - basically an engineer that studies vibration. So I knew what tuners could do and how they work. I also knew from experience that details matter when you're dealing with vibrations. And while a tuner is basically just a threaded lump of metal on the end of the barrel, the little stuff is important - the specific weight, the thread fit, the thread pitch, the locking/tension method, the presence or lack of an o-ring. It all can make a difference.

So on a recommendation, I bought myself an Ezell PDT tuner and had it installed on my TR rifle. Like I said, it's magic - load development is much, much easier and cheaper. All I have to do is get close, and I can turn a strung-out group into a tight cluster with ease. I frankly did not expect it to be so easy and repeatable.

So this is part a "thanks" to Mike for getting all the details right, and a "heads up" to the rest of you luddites who have yet to try a tuner.

That's all. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Mikemci]

Thanks for the review. I just bought Mike's PDT tuner and getting ready to send it to a benchrest type gunsmith to machine the barrel for it. Good to hear a glowing report !

 

[dcali]

Just follow the instructions- it’s pretty straightforward. Snug the set screws just enough to create a little drag and go to town. I found that each division produced a meaningful change. (I’m shooting a 28” medium Palma, which probably matters).

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To many of you this is old hat - especially you benchrest guys. But to the rest of you - especially the F class guys...

I don't usually gush about products. I tend to use what I like until I don't like it anymore and then use something else. Not really one for band loyalty or a strong affinity for equipment at all, really.

But I just have to say that Mike Ezell's tuners are magic. It's up there with carbide turning mandrels on my "why did I wait so long to get one of these" list.

Some of you might know that I was a structural dynamacist in a former life - basically an engineer that studies vibration. So I knew what tuners could do and how they work. I also knew from experience that details matter when you're dealing with vibrations. And while a tuner is basically just a threaded lump of metal on the end of the barrel, the little stuff is important - the specific weight, the thread fit, the thread pitch, the locking/tension method, the presence or lack of an o-ring. It all can make a difference.

So on a recommendation, I bought myself an Ezelle PDT tuner and had it installed on my TR rifle. Like I said, it magic - load development is much, much easier and cheaper. All I have to do is get close, and I can turn a strung-out group into a tight cluster with ease. I frankly did not expect it to be so easy and repeatable.

So this is part a "thanks" to Mike for getting all the details right, and a "heads up" to the rest of you luddites who have yet to try a tuner.

That's all. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Damon, thank you very much for that review. Anyone that I've ever spoken with about tuners knows how excited I get. I know they hear it in my voice.
I did a lot of testing before and during development of my own design. I used things I liked about some tuners and not what I didn't, and applied a lot of research into it to make it the best I could. It is a good product but hearing and reading feedback like yours never gets old, especially coming from someone whose field of expertise is vibration.

They are so easy to use that it's hard to imagine shooting without one. It's like having an easy to use powder measure and seating die on the end of your barrel. It's not that you can't win without one, just that you're going about it the hard way.

I am humbled and grateful. Thank you again!--Mike

 

[Mikemci]

Just follow the instructions- it’s pretty straightforward. Snug the set screws just enough to create a little drag and go to town. I found that each division produced a meaningful change. (I’m shooting a 28” medium Palma, which probably matters).

Mine needs threads cut on the barrel.

 

[NV_Dmax]

Damon, thank you very much for that review. Anyone that I've ever spoken with about tuners knows how excited I get. I know they hear it in my voice.
I did a lot of testing before and during development of my own design. I used things I liked about some tuners and not what I didn't, and applied a lot of research into it to make it the best I could. It is a good product but hearing and reading feedback like yours never gets old, especially coming from someone whose field of expertise is vibration.

They are so easy to use that it's hard to imagine shooting without one. It's like having an easy to use powder measure and seating die on the end of your barrel. It's not that you can't win without one, just that you're going about it the hard way.

I am humbled and grateful. Thank you again!--Mike

Any idea when they’ll be back in stock? I’m assembling my 1000 yard gun right now and want to use your PDT tuner but Killough has been out of stock for some time.

thanks

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Any idea when they’ll be back in stock? I’m assembling my 1000 yard gun right now and want to use your PDT tuner but Killough has been out of stock for some time.

thanks

Killough doesn't carry the center fire tuner. I do have several in stock as well more that are already in the pipeline.

 

[Ned Ludd]

To many of you this is old hat - especially you benchrest guys. But to the rest of you - especially the F class guys...

I don't usually gush about products. I tend to use what I like until I don't like it anymore and then use something else. Not really one for band loyalty or a strong affinity for equipment at all, really.

But I just have to say that Mike Ezell's tuners are magic. It's up there with carbide turning mandrels on my "why did I wait so long to get one of these" list.

Some of you might know that I was a structural dynamacist in a former life - basically an engineer that studies vibration. So I knew what tuners could do and how they work. I also knew from experience that details matter when you're dealing with vibrations. And while a tuner is basically just a threaded lump of metal on the end of the barrel, the little stuff is important - the specific weight, the thread fit, the thread pitch, the locking/tension method, the presence or lack of an o-ring. It all can make a difference.

So on a recommendation, I bought myself an Ezelle PDT tuner and had it installed on my TR rifle. Like I said, it magic - load development is much, much easier and cheaper. All I have to do is get close, and I can turn a strung-out group into a tight cluster with ease. I frankly did not expect it to be so easy and repeatable.

So this is part a "thanks" to Mike for getting all the details right, and a "heads up" to the rest of you luddites who have yet to try a tuner.

That's all. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

What are you trying to say, Damon? As the founder of the Luddites, I take exception to your comment . I currently have tuners on two different F-TR rifles with a 3rd on the way. One suggestion though, for F-Class shooting, I think you're much better off going through your full blown load development process before setting the tuner. Only after that should you set the tuner, as opposed to using the tuner to actually dial out any remaining undesirable characteristics at the end of the process. Just my .02.

 

[dcali]

What are you trying to say, Damon? As the founder of the Luddites, I take exception to your comment . I currently have tuners on two different F-TR rifles with a 3rd on the way. One suggestion though, for F-Class shooting, I think you're much better off going through your full blown load development process before setting the tuner. Only after that should you set the tuner, as opposed to using the tuner to actually dial out any remaining undesirable characteristics at the end of the process. Just my .02.

So far that’s been my experience as well. I’ve had to get close the old fashioned way, but being a little off on seating depth, for example, can be cleaned up with the tuner if the load looks good but is just a little strung out. I’m pretty impressed so far. It doesn’t replace load development at all but it sure makes it easier. It won’t turn a bad load good, but it has been reliable in wringing out the last bit of a good load more easily.

 

[geo.ulrich]

Damon, To add to what you've said the palma tapers seem to respond a little better than the heavier br tapers I would guess because of barrel stiffness

 

[dcali]

Damon, To add to what you've said the palma tapers seem to respond a little better than the heavier br tapers I would guess because of barrel stiffness

Mine is a heavy palma at 28". It works like a dream on that. Maybe heavier tuners would work better on shorter barrels. Barrel length is in theory much more important than contour for this stuff, but both matter.

 

[Marksman63]

Just follow the instructions- it’s pretty straightforward. Snug the set screws just enough to create a little drag and go to town. I found that each division produced a meaningful change. (I’m shooting a 28” medium Palma, which probably matters).

How are you setting your tuner?
- Fix it according your best group and set your load according the temperature’s changes?
- Fix your load and set the tuner for best group according the temperature?

 

[AckleymanII]

I have used three different kinds of tuners plus 4 rifles with a BOSS on them, they all worked!

 

[dcali]

How are you setting your tuner?
- Fix it according your best group and set your load according the temperature’s changes?
- Fix your load and set the tuner for best group according the temperature?

First, there are people with vastly more experience using tuners than me. As an F class guy, I don't really have the opportunity to tweak mid match with any certainty, so adjusting for temperature is probably better left to others to answer. But here is what worked for me, from start to finish, followed by some thoughts on (barrel) temperature as it pertains to F class.

I'm shooting a .308 FTR rifle with heavy bullets and a 28" heavy palma barrel, and am testing at 100 yards, give or take.

First thing was to do a pick a known good powder (Varget in this case) at a little under saami max pressure, and do a rough seating depth test over a wide range - from jammed 10 to jumping 120. (Basically, the Berger VLD test). That should point in the general direction. 120 is probably overkill, but I did find one bullet that likes 120 as well as 20, which is another conversation.

Use that data to refine your seating depth until groups are as small as they'll get, but without really paying attention to if they're strung one way or another. If you are happy with that rough size, then use that and start turning the tuner, one notch per group. I tried two divisions and it was too coarse. 1 division is about right for my rifle to see a repeatable change. I would expect the sensitivity to vary with barrel length. But it works just about perfectly for my rifle.

When doing that, the groups change shape from vertically strung, to diagonally strung to horizontally strung to round (which is where you want to land) in a cyclical manner. You need to catch it as it's transitioning from strung one way to strung another way.

But if your groups aren't genereally in the right ball park in size, you've got to go back and tweak your powder weight, etc. For my rifle, getting groups that were good but not perfect was the time to put the seating die down and start on the tuner. It won't make a big group small. It will make a oblong group smaller and rounder.

As for barrel temperature change, - it does change the elastic stiffness of the steel in a predictable, but small way as you heat it, which changes the vibration frequency. I bet, but have not confirmed, that you can figure out how to adjust that half way through an F class string to keep the frequency constant. So starting cold, shoot ten rounds, tweak the tuner a predetermined amount (probably not much) to compensate for the temperature change from the hot barrel, and then shoot 10 more. It may not matter, but its on my list of things to investigate. You can calculate the amount of tuner movement needed to keep the frequency constant. Then, you can verify by testing 20 shot strings, (four five-shot groups), and observing the shape change, both with and without the adjustment after 10 rounds. The calculation might not be perfect, but it ought to be order of magnitude accurate to see if that amount of change is practical to make mid string.

This all makes for a markedly different load development method than I have done without a tuner. I used to basically make a grid of charge weight vs seating depth and just start shooting groups, refining the grid as I honed in on a good spot. It works great, but it's time consuming, and you just have to keep trying once you get close, always wondering if the step you took was too coarse, or if you're wasting ammo by not making a big enough step.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Damon, To add to what you've said the palma tapers seem to respond a little better than the heavier br tapers I would guess because of barrel stiffness

I have tested and seen this to be true, mostly in that, a less rigid barrel shows tune or lack thereof more clearly than a short, stiff barrel and seems to stay in tune longer. These are qualities that I've verified by both vibration analysis and more importantly, on paper.

You may remember Boyd Allen speaking of "hinged" barrels, which is nothing more than machining a point along the barrel that makes for a less stiff overall profile. I did test it a fair bit and the theory appears to be sound. I'm also working with a couple of barrel makers to offer a tuner specific contour to do essentially the same thing and while shedding several ounces from the barrel, making it more feasible to make weight with it. It's similar to a heavy palma but is a straight br taper. Not a great deal different than a LV contour but a tad straighter overall. Meets the rules as well as being more tuner friendly and easier to make weight with. I got my first one in this contour around the first of this month and just have not had time to test it much yet. I have no doubt that it will shoot well but want to evaluate it's advantages over a typical hv contour specifically, first. --Mike

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I have tested and seen this to be true, mostly in that, a less rigid barrel shows tune or lack thereof more clearly than a short, stiff barrel and seems to stay in tune longer. These are qualities that I've verified by both vibration analysis and more importantly, on paper.

You may remember Boyd Allen speaking of "hinged" barrels, which is nothing more than machining a point along the barrel that makes for a less stiff overall profile. I did test it a fair bit and the theory appears to be sound. I'm also working with a couple of barrel makers to offer a tuner specific contour to do essentially the same thing and while shedding several ounces from the barrel, making it more feasible to make weight with it. It's similar to a heavy palma but is a straight br taper. Not a great deal different than a LV contour but a tad straighter overall. Meets the rules as well as being more tuner friendly and easier to make weight with. I got my first one in this contour around the first of this month and just have not had time to test it much yet. I have no doubt that it will shoot well but want to evaluate it's advantages over a typical hv contour specifically, first. --Mike

Get us a lv barrel taper figured out thatll be 5.25lb with tuner and be 23+ plus like how bruno redid the lv bruno taper to be longer and make weight

 

[KenOath]

First, there are people with vastly more experience using tuners than me. As an F class guy, I don't really have the opportunity to tweak mid match with any certainty, so adjusting for temperature is probably better left to others to answer. But here is what worked for me, from start to finish, followed by some thoughts on (barrel) temperature as it pertains to F class.

I'm shooting a .308 FTR rifle with heavy bullets and a 28" heavy palma barrel, and am testing at 100 yards, give or take.

First thing was to do a pick a known good powder (Varget in this case) at a little under saami max pressure, and do a rough seating depth test over a wide range - from jammed 10 to jumping 120. (Basically, the Berger VLD test). That should point in the general direction. 120 is probably overkill, but I did find one bullet that likes 120 as well as 20, which is another conversation.

Use that data to refine your seating depth until groups are as small as they'll get, but without really paying attention to if they're strung one way or another. If you are happy with that rough size, then use that and start turning the tuner, one notch per group. I tried two divisions and it was too coarse. 1 division is about right for my rifle to see a repeatable change. I would expect the sensitivity to vary with barrel length. But it works just about perfectly for my rifle.

When doing that, the groups change shape from vertically strung, to diagonally strung to horizontally strung to round (which is where you want to land) in a cyclical manner. You need to catch it as it's transitioning from strung one way to strung another way.

But if your groups aren't genereally in the right ball park in size, you've got to go back and tweak your powder weight, etc. For my rifle, getting groups that were good but not perfect was the time to put the seating die down and start on the tuner. It won't make a big group small. It will make a oblong group smaller and rounder.

As for barrel temperature change, - it does change the elastic stiffness of the steel in a predictable, but small way as you heat it, which changes the vibration frequency. I bet, but have not confirmed, that you can figure out how to adjust that half way through an F class string to keep the frequency constant. So starting cold, shoot ten rounds, tweak the tuner a predetermined amount (probably not much) to compensate for the temperature change from the hot barrel, and then shoot 10 more. It may not matter, but its on my list of things to investigate. You can calculate the amount of tuner movement needed to keep the frequency constant. Then, you can verify by testing 20 shot strings, (four five-shot groups), and observing the shape change, both with and without the adjustment after 10 rounds. The calculation might not be perfect, but it ought to be order of magnitude accurate to see if that amount of change is practical to make mid string.

This all makes for a markedly different load development method than I have done without a tuner. I used to basically make a grid of charge weight vs seating depth and just start shooting groups, refining the grid as I honed in on a good spot. It works great, but it's time consuming, and you just have to keep trying once you get close, always wondering if the step you took was too coarse, or if you're wasting ammo by not making a big enough step.

So you do your normal tune without the tuner screwed to Barrel, then once coarse tune is done screw the tuner on? Or do you do your normal tune with tuner on set to a central position?

 

[tn6br]

So you do your normal tune without the tuner screwed to Barrel, then once coarse tune is done screw the tuner on? Or do you do your normal tune with tuner on set to a central position?

Work up a load (tuner installed) without moving the tuner. After you have a good load you can move tuner a mark at a time to tweak out all the potential of that load in any given condition. It's stupid easy and almost like cheating.

 

[tn6br]

Damon,
a close up picture of the tuner mounted on the barrel would help us understand how the Ezell tuner is different than my Erik Cortina tuner.

Thanks,

Joe

Not real familiar with ec tuner but I am under the impression his has no dampening media and probably weighs less (speculation as I've never had one in my hands) more weight generally means wider tune windows and smaller needed adjustments.

 

[6BRinNZ]

has anyone found that a tuner setting that shoots small at short range doesn't carry out to long range?
A bit like some seating depths appear to work well short range but don't carry to long range. It'll be close but not quite.
The context for my question is FTR 300 - 1000 yards. With seating depths IME there is one that will work well over all of the ranges shot in FTR. Is it similar with tuners?